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Very sad story. There was no guaranty to this 1st contractor's job ? I understand this bad feeling you must have....Terrible.

Given all those horror stories I hear about poorly done renovation work, I  wonder if it's not better, to buy a place ready to live in instead of having to face all those costly headaches ?  I know there are tons of ruins and abandoned houses on the market in Portugal but is it worth buying them ? In the end, if 'the fish costs more than the soup', maybe it's better to just not buy them at all. It's really discouraging to see many of them just in that poor shape but it's important to estimate the cost before buying and add another 20% at least for unexpected events. Some contractors will give you a low estimate so you hire them and then, you are stuck with them otherwise they won't finish their job as poor as it is.

Hopefully you won't have to sell it too fast given that in Santarem, it can take such a long time to sell real estate, so you won't lose more money.

Thanks for sharing your story. I will buy an apartment instead even if hard to find some recent building at affordable prices.

I'm probably a bit vulnerable to this kind of thing, since we need some work done and I don't have connections, so I'd fall for the first contractor who comes along.  But ... British?  Is that common, residential construction from outside the country / EU?

@donn25 When I was in Portugal 2 years ago, my boyfriend who is a drywall taper was looking for work in Portugal. From what the construction crews told us, there is a shortage of construction workers there. The older men who have been in the construction area are getting ready for retirement and the younger generation is not interested in this area of work. I worked as his assistant for a while and a lot of the workers were and are coming from other countries so not surprised.

And yes, be careful because we were told by homeowners that it is very difficult to find someone reliable and professional. Many started the work and either left very poor finishing or not complete.

Just be aware and informed of their working record

@williamstony360 Very disappointing to hear and upsetting. It is such a shame that people do not take pride in their work or have any concern for their reputation. Having worked with my boyfriend in the past in drywall taping, I saw the care in his work and he taught me a lot. It is so good when you can look at your finished product and be proud of what I call our art work because that is what it is.

So sorry you and many others go through that especially when moving to another country which is already a difficult move with learning language, laws, getting used to new culture and so on

Thank you for sharing your experience and preparing everyone for what to look out for.

All the best going forward

@juliajonesjy Very well said and that is a conclusion I have come to as well.

Too many old broken down houses which years ago noone was interesting in selling or buying are now too expensive when you consider renovations, so I agree that it is better to invest in something that is already move in ready.

@williamstony360 Thanks for sharing. Sorry that happened to you. I haven't bought yet but am hoping to be able to build a sustainable and eco home using cob or hempcrete. And I will try to be careful about hiring people, though it sounds like it might be hard to find skilled workers.

There are cowboy builders in every country, you need to do your homework. Don't go with the very first one. Get a few quotes, and ask for references and check that they are real.

Hi,

On the other hand, and this is in no way a criticism of anyone on here, I think there are several things going on here which are not necessary connected.   One being that (just pick a random area)  around Tomar there are many traditionally built houses available but the traditional build methods are not the same as modern houses. Field stone (local material) is carefully laid up to produce a house wall , usually no foundations, load bearing stone "lintels" are used to form openings for door or window during the wall building, "infill" between the stones to fill the gaps is often mud. the whole lot can then be rendered in lime based render.  If you look at the offerings on Idialista, as in the link below, for Tomar area there are many available of this type of construction. The roof is structure is a wooden ridge beam and rafters of straightish branches with tiles on top. The roof space is vented to the outside world. There is no cavity wall and no insulation. As the houses are old they have age related habitation "licenses" so can be lived in.  The buildings need constant maintenance, as things like small crack in the render lets water in which is then trapped within the wall - but the render is lime based so on dry days the wall breathes out moisture ( internal wall humidity slowly equalises  to the external humidity).

Non-local buyers of these houses do not seem to understand several things like painting the render with non lime based paint to make it look pretty will prevent the wall exhaling moisture, using non lime based render will also do this.  Sealing the roof space and putting layers of modern insulation, sealed screed floors and  sealed double glazing units and sealed doors all sounds like "upgrade" but can easily lock moisture in.  The vented roof space need to be vented as wood worm grubs (other borers are available) need approx 10% moisture to thrive and destroy the wood so this need to dry to naturally kill them.

As for new builds they need to have been approved as a "project" by the council (generally no building on land classed as "Rustic") and using modern approved building methods by registered builders - whose registration should be included with the house paperwork before being granted a habitation license. Being Portugal there is some flexibility and randomness to how this is all done.

If you are thinking of some  remodeling etc.  an house you want to purchase then you must be aware that not all building methods are compatible to all houses but if you "employ" a builder to do the work you want then they will do as they are asked even if it ends up ruining the house.  Foreign house owners have a bad name for several things like asking builders to give estimates for work (which involves the builder's time and money) when they do not really know what they want or what is sensible - like putting an extra window in a field stone wall - the render would need removing then the wall dismantled stone by stone to below the new window level then after a load bearing frame and new window fitted the wall rebuilt and rerendered, all the while the Foreigner would whine about "back home" it costs 35c and takes 30 minutes to have a hole cut in a wall and window fitted.

So if you do not know what you are doing and you will still be responsible for your actions. 

i am in the same situation with a house built 5 years ago in Tomar

I am in court of justice with the first 2 builders,

too many crooks in this country..... be care, all the more if you are a foreigner....

it is a shame for portugal

I speak WITH GERMAN and english people that also bad experiences with builder in Portugal, so now they work with german or english builder, no more with portuguses workers and i think thats we have to do'

I loose 90 000e

How did this topic devolve into blaming "Portuguese " workers for shoddy workmanship?

The original post said.. "I was contacted by a British "Master-builder" (according to him) for renovations"

So... hey gang... lets all hop to and bash the Brits..

Yeah... thought so...

@paulasousa20

I would tend to agree with the move-in-ready advice except that the new construdtions looks, to me, like cold office cubicles. Everything is uniform and pre-fab unless one has an unlimited budget in which case custom is the way to go.  Unfortunately, even then, I have heard stories of shoddy workmanship.  IMHO, it's a shame that the Portuguese government does not provide tax exemptions and professional training program incentives for young people to enter the building trades, especially given the dire state of housing shortages.  Added to that suggestion would be for the governement to regulate the construction industry standards. That would go a long way in preventing unqualified and unskilled people from hanging out a shingle and calling themselves a "developer"!  My last presumptuous suggestion would be to establish a skilled practice of renovating Portugal's many beautiful houses with some repect paid to the original architectural integrity instead of taking the "bones" of a lovely home and slapping in totally incongruous pre-fab interiors. Just saying...

   
Portugal's many beautiful houses with some repect paid to the original architectural integrity
   

    -@marijarobey

Based on viewings and inspection many buildings here I can only assume you have no concept of how the majority of older properties are constructed. Similar to dry stone walls with mud filling the gaps and no foundations.  The "posh" ones may have different construction but very few people could ever afford or lived in them.

My remark about paying respect to the original architectural integrity was simply in reference to the construction design and not a tradesman's evaluation of the construction itself, and so I defer to your viewings and inspections in regard to that.  I still think that the older houses (I'm not talking about ancient or ruins) that are being rehabbed look very odd with their classic exteriors and ultra modern pre-fab interiors.

I know only what I saw on the internet when looking for a house, but it seems to me

• stone houses restored to presumably comfortable living spaces fetched premium prices.  I'm talking about anything with a significant expanse of visible stone.
• I wasn't struck by incongruous modern interiors, though I'm sure it could happen.  Very often some of the interior walls were bare stone.  Old stone houses are often pretty small, so spaces can be cramped - and dark.
• in the north the situation is a little different, stone seems to be a more commonly encountered material in large quarried blocks.  South of say Porto the nice restored stone home is much rarer, and doesn't seem very likely to make a significant dent in the housing shortage under any circumstances.
• there are a lot of houses that need a lot of work to be habitable, but more often not so old - and not so well built.  I don't think it's a failure to understand how to maintain them, as much as they just weren't built with the isolation etc. they need.  (Of course, unmaintained leaky roof is fatal.)  Often not well designed - kitchens with cabinets over the sink, etc.  And there are often ownership problems, multiple heirs etc. that can't be quickly resolved.

This is all very interesting and informs me to be careful in generalizing about the housing situation.  My experiences are based entirely (after living in Portugal for going on 7 months) on personal observation, exhaustive internet searches for houses for sale and an occasional expressed viewpoint from a local portuguese with whom I have spoken. I am always happy to become better informed about things pertaining to life in Portugal, as I have chosen to come here to live. 

About the same here.  All I really know for sure, is about the cabinets over the kitchen sink, of which I'm physically reminded on practically a daily basis.

The  only really old real estate I managed to visit in person was old enough to have real wood floors, supported by wood joists, and the high ceilings and other features of a nicer house of that era.  They were busy fixing it up, and I think some of that would remain, but they were putting in a ground floor daylight basement - and the plan was to install the kitchen at the back of it, a sort of kitchen grotto with no natural light except what filters in from the other end of the floor plan.

@williamstony360

Hi. I am hoping your final renovation worked out and if so, would you be willing to share that contractor’s contact information. I am starting a project near Coimbra (and l live in the USA). Best, Tanzi

@williamstony360

Hello, I hope you were ultimately happy with your renovation. If so, do you mind sharing the contractor’s contact information with me? I will be starting a project near Coimbra soon and will be doing so from afar. Peace of mind would be nice. Best, Tanzi

Some really useful posts here regarding the construction methods of property in different parts of the country. Sorry to hear of the original poster's @williamstony36012 story. We completed two apartments, and are onto our 3/4/5th renovation in Estremoz, Évora district, (we renovate properties and rent them out with relocation support), and we use a mix of builders and our own labour (that is, my husband and I). We have been very fortunate to find our first builder, a local Portuguese man and his small team who has been absolutely excellent. Through friends, we have heard all sorts, things going super well and sometimes people having a bad experience, court case and all (in those situations, it's been both local and international contractors).

We find there is nothing better or worse here regarding contractors, we find the same risks in other countries where we have had to hire contractors, whether for ourselves in the UK, or for family elsewhere. What we would recommend is checking the "Livro de Reclamações" which is a online book recording any formal complaints in the past for a contractor (and many other professions and businesses). We did not in fact do this as we didn't know about it when we first arrived(!), but just got lucky with a great builder. However we do have friends who got stung, and only later they found existing bad reviews/records in this portal (). As others have said, references, etc. always are a good place to start.

Usually the biggest problem we and fellow renovators find, is that everyone is just so busy! So much work, not enough workers given the demand. We are in the Alentejo and there is a major new rail line, which has absorbed a good number of people for years, so that has been part of the problem too. As well as being in a low population area of the country. With various Lisbonites and international people moving to the Evora region there is more demand certainly on property and contractors. It's all good thing though when we see more and more abandoned places renovated.

I noticed @donn25 mention kitchen cabinets over the sink which is interesting, we usually pick a different size under the sink for wall units, so there is an extra 20cm of height space. Then we install an LED underneath (with a piece of cornice/moulding shade so it's not in your eyes). So overall it's approximately 66cm above the sink, which we usually install 90-93cm high. We find that works well, but it sounds like for @donn25 they installed standard cabinet so you're just inches away from it when washing up? Not so fun!

Whatever the experience we feel very fortunate to be in this beautiful country! - Elizabeth

The way I add that up, the cabinet over the sink is at most 159cm.  A six foot tall person is 183cm, 9 inches above the bottom of the cabinet.

What works for me is the sink in front of a window.  Or facing a window, on an island.  Nothing else comes close.  Ideally, same for all the working area counter space.  Traditional design for kitchens in Portugal reflects an unhappy attitude that in the kitchen you don't deserve a comfortable, well lighted space.

Speaking of head hazards for people of modern height in the kitchen, one place we stayed for a couple days had a traditional stove hood - the big masonry thing with a ledge around it that you can put junk on.  Ouch.

We find it works well even for taller people as of course wall units are far shallower than the base units. But each to their own, we completely agree that a sink in front of a window is great when you have the option and space!

We have also noticed a trend, with more and more friends choosing to have no wall cabinets at all for a lighter feel in the kitchen. Of course, you need to have a large enough kitchen to be able to lose that storage space.

Re. the hearths, when we place a cooker or hob in one of these grand Portuguese hearths, we always raise the lintel so it's above the height of a tall person, over 6 feet, so that they can easily and freely cook without any ouch :-)

Hopefully you can design your next kitchen inside-out so you can have it exactly as you like it. It's the heart of the home so absolutely makes a big difference a well designed one.

In the US we had some counter space with cabinets above, and some without.  You can use the former for open storage, appliances, etc.  If you prepare food much, a working area without cabinets over it will quickly make you forget about lost storage space.

@marijarobey good points. However, I believe they have a civil engineering course in Maia that's either relatively cheap or even free (can't remember off the top of my head). I know it's cheaper than university courses and organisations like Critical Concrete.

I've spent a lot of time looking at forums of various countries I've considered as possible retirement destinations, and sadly this story is all too common. It seems that there are British tradespeople who have taken advantage of the less stringent laws overseas, although this can be a problem at home too, to greedily scam anyone taken in.  My take on it is that I intend to learn the language of the country I retire to a decent level before moving there. Besides this is a requirement to get an EU passport eventually. I intend to only use local tradespeople that have a good local reputation. I think they will appreciate the trade from an expat and hopefully pay me back with good service.

Beware of unqualified builders with zero time in college, they use poorly made concrete  block walls, and they use a lot of sea sand in the concrete which is a huge no no, it’s full of salt which rusts the reinforcement and acts as a sponge attracting yet more moisture. Portugal and the Island of Madeira have the worst building practices I have ever seen, utter bodgers, beware!

@Matthewwadd

I guess (!!!!) the problem is everywhere. I see horrendous building quality, often in areas that will sooner or later be covered with render and be invisible. I would recommend to anybody building in Portugal to have a trusted (!) construction supervisor on site most of the time. Plus, I would recommend having quite descriptive construction methodologies in the contracts.

@Strontium

I think you don’t know about hold construction, dry stones and foundation… the houses i have in the mountains in the Algarve was builded by my great grand father (about 1910), are very good thermoregulated, using a wood stove in winter, it is  cool in the summer thanks to the very thick stone wall.

@Strontium
I think you don’t know about hold construction, dry stones and foundation… the houses i have in the mountains in the Algarve was builded by my great grand father (about 1910), are very good thermoregulated, using a wood stove in winter, it is cool in the summer thanks to the very thick stone wall. - @Rose RosaMaria

Maybe you could elucidate on the area, construction methods, type of insulation used and fitting, windows and fitting methods, depth and material of foundations, walls construction, type and construction of roof, any modifications over the  intervening period etc.

I think there'd be a lot of interest in that - stone construction standards - though maybe mostly outside this forum.  Portugal has lots of abandoned structures that can be restored to very attractive residences, if the money and the expertise is available.  Or you can make a hash of it, either starting with a structure that has irredeemable problems, or applying inappropriate solutions like using concrete in place of mortar.  I think it's a safe bet you could easily go wrong here.

@williamstony360

Soo sorry to hear this. We had a similar experience with a British builder on the silver coast…. Soo stressful, sooo expensive and soo scary. Ruined our move to Portugal… this man was a total cowboy and fraudster… we’re trying to take him to court to hopefully get some of the 50k we lost back… and have since found 3 others he’s done exactly the same too