½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

Yes I agree with a lot you said. My opinion is men are the maintainers and protectors of women, this is the Muslim belief. I’m not saying keep women locked up and of course from a child women need to be allowed to develop life skills which will allow to deal with unwanted attention. Being weak is being vulnerable. I’m all for women being in charge of the home, cooking and looking after the children but as for running the country, fighting in the army and being the boss of men..we’ll we will probably differ on opinion. That said I do live in my home, eat the cooking and they are my children too so I’m not really passing over any responsibility.

Totally agree the rapist is most likely to be a  ‘friend’ or family member. As see things differently regarding the intoxicated woman, sometimes it’s abuse/rape or not something the woman would have done sober or something she will regret after. It’s all illegal (zina) but with different degrees of evil/accountability.

Yes I know there are two types of coffee shops in Morocco and some Moroccans would sell their mother and father to be European or American or whatever’s in their heads. Even in Starbucks my wife didn’t really want to go and I mean only in Morocco not in the UK. This is because coffee shops are known as where the men go and it’s the women that mix with men/have boyfriends that are going to these coffee shops, for the European style ones anyway. The old style coffee shops, well it’s mainly a women free zone, not even working their.

Your wife likely thinks this way because she has been raised to think this way.  However, if a bunch of women get there first, then the men are entering their newly occupied zone.  Free wifi and clean washrooms are very hard to resist.

Regarding the men's café situation.  There was a few times where I really needed to use the washroom in smaller places and I bought a bottle of water or something like that and used to the washroom and there was no issue.  I think it was pretty obvious I really did not want to be there.

Regarding men being the protector, realistically that situation is not really working out all that well globally and most places when women are not educated and empower they end up having less economic prosperity. 

If you look at things from a very logically perspective.  No one knows when they are going to get sick or die.  You marry a woman who you allow or encourage to be dependant on you and not develop the life skills which include a way to make money to support herself and your child what will happen to her if you get sick or die?  Would you want her to end up begging to support herself or selling tissue and candy on the side of the roads all hours of the day to support herself and your children or be placed in desperate situations?  Would you want your children to have to be out in the market selling things to be at high risk of being taken advantage of by bad people that prey on kids in these situations. 

I am not sure if that concept you mentioned was taken out of context, but in real life it is not practical.  Men and women, humans need to protect and care for each other.  Woman can and do hold many serious leadership roles in the world.  It has already happened so there should be no surprise that women are capable of doing this.  If someone has talent why would you hold them back.  Would it be better to have a woman that was brilliant kept as a housewife when she has the potential to be a heart surgeon saving people's lives?  I don't think there is an exact answer that works for each person, but as a woman seeing the lives of women in different situations in my own country and around the world, I would not want to allow myself to be dependent on anyone just in case.  Single or married everyone needs money to live.

globewalker wrote:

I don't fully agree with a lot of what you are saying.

I think a huge difference between rape and sexual harassment in Morocco compared to place like Canada, the USA and the UK is that in Morocco girls and women are far less likely to report that they have been raped as it results in significant social stigma.  Regardless it is very traumatic and difficult for someone to report that they were raped anywhere.

Do you think all those street children in Morocco fell from the sky?

I also disagree with the idea that Moroccan men are more likely then men in Canada, the USA and UK to take care of children they have fathered.

Again do you think all those street children in Morocco fell from the sky?

Also while in Morocco I did meet many women on the streets begging or in pretty bag economic situations that had been abandoned by their husbands.

I find that in Moroccan culture when marriages fail the stigma placed higher on the woman then the man.

Also sorry to shock you but women ALL over the world are conditioned to think their value relates to their beauty.  These messages are global.  What physical beauty means can be different in different parts of the world.... but the message is there.  You are mixing idea regarding popular culture and religious values.  Far too many people neglect to remember that life as shown on TV is not real life for most people.  The USA and Canada are not "really secular" countries.  The laws are to various extents influenced by religiously beliefs and values.  There are lots of very conservative and religious people of various faiths in these countries.  What is legally tolerated and socially acceptable is not the same thing.  You are also comparing "lower socioeconomic classes" with middle and higher socioeconomic classes.  In most countries people from these different economic groups co-exist with each other but don't go out of their way to inter-mix.  I see the same thing in Morocco.  Moroccans are not uniformly socially conservative or religious.

It was confusing how to interact with men.  I never reach out to shake someone's hand and tend to wait to see how they choose to greet me as I am use to being around people of many different faiths and cultures so I am flexible with my expectations.  Some men in Morocco do reach out to shake your hand and others don't.  I took no offensive in either situation but did observe different actions.  It is not a big deal to me regardless.

I about what stereotypes you are creating about women from Canada, USA and the UK by your comments unfairly suggesting that we are loose, easy or careless with our bodies.  This may be the case for women around where you are from, but this is not a clear spectrum anywhere.

Also RAPE and choosing to have sex with someone are very different.  Views on sexuality are not universal across the world or even from area to area within the same country.  Based on what I was observing in smaller villages and towns in Morocco to bigger cities that values and social norms are not uniform either.  Again I observed women wearing things in big cities in Morocco I would not wear in my own country.  So there is a spectrum.

Regarding having children outside of being married I am not personally in support of this idea, but in reality what happens to women who do happen to have children outside of marriage is tragic in Morocco.  Again all those street children did not fall from the sky.  In my country I have NEVER seen street children.  So this was shocking for me.  I have seen this in some other countries in the world too.  While travelling in Morocco I did have opportunities to interact with many people that were living very below the poverty line and were literally malnourished.  In Canada most of our homeless population are people that are significant mentally ill or drug addicts that are refusing to comply rules required to get shelter or food access.  In Morocco I saw an entirely different type of poverty.  They did not present as mentally ill or drug addicts … just in bad economic circumstances.  A child walking up to be asking me for food because they are hungry is tragic and should not be ignored.  Poverty does exist everywhere.  The main difference for me is that I have no issue giving food or money to someone who needs to eat, but I have an issue giving money to someone who is drug addict who is actively choosing not to get the available help.  Some of my experiences and observations did leave me with a reminder that life is truly not fair.

These are big issues anywhere and not a quick fix.  Regardless in general I think Morocco is changing and a lot of good things are happening in regards to women's and children's rights and development.  I can see the changes, but the changes are most obvious in bigger cities.  I was roaming around places that ranged from small villages to big cities and I warn anyone woman travelling outside of bigger cities in Morocco to understand that once you leave the bigger cities you better be 100% more cautious of how you are dressed because you will drastically stand out.

This constant reference to Moroccan street kids seems to suggest they are without parents and the result of rape or women without husbands having and then abandoning. How naïve! Morocco is like many poor 3rd world countries.  Poor kids (and many not so poor) play in the street and beg from foreigners; it does not mean they are orphans, homeless or even from broken families.

Hi,

I did not make my comments carelessly.  I did my homework on the topic.  YES there are children that live on the streets in Morocco and in other places in the world that do not have a family that cares for and protects them.  I know have babies are made  so technically all children have biological mothers and fathers, but when these biological parents are failing to provide for them and the children end up in the streets they are called street children.  I am not talking about kids that are hanging out with other children playing on the streets all day that go home to their family to sleep at night.

For you references for anyone else who may have interest in the topic.



This level of poverty and human hardship is REAL.

For instance the little girl I was speaking with explained how frequently other adults would chase her away and specifically the prostitutes would make fun of her for begging and call her names.

Please note I meet this little girl at almost 1 am approaching us a group of strangers eating at a restaurant.  She was asking for FOOD because she was hungry.  She was not asking for money!  She was asking for FOOD!  This is a real problem. 

I also would argue that how does anyone know for certain a child does have a family that is taking care of them when they see a child roaming around the streets day and night.  It is very easy for people to assume that they are okay and have parents or family taking care of them.  Children are easy to fall between the cracks hence why they are consider vulnerable.

So again maybe some of those men hanging out in those cafes all day have some secretes they are hiding.

The plight of women who have children outside of marriage is Morocco is really a big deal.  Rape, incest and sex outside of marriage happen all over the world.  The difference is how each society deals with the situation.

If a girl or woman gets pregnant in Morocco that is not married what happens?  How does her family and society treat her?  What will her future and the child's future be like?

In most cases VERY VERY VERY bad!

I challenge men reading this from anywhere to look in to this topic from a female perspective to understand the circumstances of women that accidently end up in this position.  If a girl or woman has sex outside of marriage and gets pregnant the WORLD knows.  A boy or man can walk away very easily and no person will know what he has done.  The girl/ woman has to deal with the emotional and potentially physical abuse and harm that goes along with this.  This problems are age old and not new!

Again, based on my observations and research I think Morocco is making progress in addressing these social concerns though.  There are good things happening, but the problem is still there.

I am not judging anyone for not being aware of this because I personally did not really understand the situation until I did more research on the topic.  I thought those children were just play or hanging out and had somewhere to go and someone to take care of them, but this is not the general case.

I recall being in Fez and having children rushing up to me and asking me for things or seeing young teenagers misbehaving in the streets in groups and getting told off by store owners or people for being there.  This is real.  As an adult to you really need to stop and have compassion for this kids.  The worlds has been very cruel to them.

Child poverty is an Canada, the USA and other developed counties, but it is not as large of an issue and 100% not so in your face.

Then there is the ethics of how can we judge and punish someone who has come from these circumstances the same way as someone who was raised with a family?

I question if the more socially and religiously conservative side of Morocco results in people not being as open to talking about these issues openly.

There is not difference in the amount of rapists and pedophiles anywhere in the world objectively, but in some societies they are more aware of and willing to speak up about the problem.  This can make woman and children in these environments easier targets because if something happens they are too scared to say anything because even if they are the victim they will also be socially judge and punished.

Shannan wrote:

I am an American woman and have a question for someone to answer honestly?? Since living as a single woman in Morocco over the  past few months  I can't help but notice everyday when I pass at least 20 cafes many of the men  yell at me like I'm an animal..  the sad part is some of the same men that try to chat with me have wedding bands on.... Is this why the men sit there all day🙄🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 I'm clueless ...  They treat woman disrespectfully but will kill a man if anyone did this to there mother's, sisters or wives.. I am not saying every moroccan man does this but in my experience so far it seems like many choose this behavior??? Help me understand please ! Thank you

I set on coffe and i admit i look to women who look attractive. But i dont yell at any girl. It's disrespects for my self and the women too.

It dont think looking is a big deal personally.  It is pretty human.  We all have eyes.  It is like you mentioned, the yelling and calling out and making comments that makes things very uncomfortable and scary for a lot of women.  I think if women acted that way to men it would be uncomfortable too.

Is a big deal. We all have eyes, but you must think that you are alone and in every moment, someone is looking at you. At the end, it's annoying.
If after 30 minutes feeling that, one men calling you or he makes you some comments, the situation becames insupportable.

I left Casablanca because of that.

Sara.m.j89,

I understand what you mean.  But looking and continue to stare at someone is very different.  There is an actual term for this in English that I can't remember.  Where I live there were actually signs on the buses and subways reminding me about this.  In my opinion only someone who is really socially off will continue to stare at you thinking it is okay.  I have that happen to me where I live too, but then I stare back with a really mean facial expression or roll my eyes at them and continue with what I was doing.  I call it my "You have been warned that if you disrupt me I will make you cry look".  If someone proceeds after that they are usually just really stupid and asking to be insulted.  Also if you act crazy that will scare them away.  That is unfortunately why as a woman in most place you need to be assertive so anyone trying to talk to knows they better approach you with caution or else.  Sadly you can't be too nice if you want to be taken seriously.

When in Casablanca last month I was not standing around long enough to give anyone the opportunity to stare for too long.  Technically you only notice if someone is staring at you if you continue to look back at them.  Then if they see you looking at them they might think they stand a chance or you might be interested in them too.  You have to hardcore ignore people.  I find where I am from the best way to ignore unwanted attention from men is to wear headphones.  If they do try to talk with you, you can pretend you don't hear them and they just look stupid trying to talk to someone who obviously is busy, does not want to talk or can't hear them.  They might as well be talking to themselves like a crazy person.  I have some friends that were particularly mean to people that approach them to the point the men walk away mortified.  You could always try telling someone that approaches you, "Please go back over there. If I had any interest in talking to you I would have already spoken to you" lol : )!  Or even better you could pretend like you don't understand and then reach in your bag and him 1 dirham and tell him may god bless you lol.  Confusing him in to being embarrassed thinking that you confused him with a beggar lol.

I have had way too much practice and a bit of fun with friends turning pushy men away.  You can get mad or you can get even and have some fun while doing it.

You described the situation perfectly!.

Basically those men are Mentally Retarded and in some kind of complex. These are among those people who love to look other women but if someone stares at there women they get offended,

With all due respect to those who support that men have right to stare any female, just a question Does it applies if someone stares / comments at your family women ?

Well.... to be honest the women in my family including myself can handle the attention and are not shy to insult someone if it is getting on their nerves.  To be very honest some are even bold enough to directly tell someone who crossed the line that they would never stand a chance and to not waste their time.

This is a balance of confidence too.  If a man knows a woman will likely embarrass him, insult him or hit him back he is way less likely to be brave enough to bug her unless he is in fact truly crazy.

When I was teenager we would purposely dress up and go out  in groups of female friends and tease/ make fun of guys or men that tried to talk to us lol.  Yes ... this was mean and very bad behavior … but excellent practice.  It sent out a clear message to approach us with caution and served as a reminder that if anyone of us did choose to talk with one of them it was a complement and they should not try to push their luck or else.

How people responds to the behaviour of others can effect the pattern.

hello

It's the way Moroccan men are.  Even covered Moroccan women get harassed by Moroccan men in Morocco. The ones who were  raised in Morocco have a way to handle it but for those from somewhere else it's difficult. I'm a Moroccan dutch woman born and bred in the Netherlands.  For me it's difficult to understand the animal behaviour of men there.  Ignoring is the only thing you can do and They'll stop when they don't get a reaction.

If you don't deal with them and give them a reaction that will humiliate them in public and insult them and their mothers that brought them up to behave like that nothing changes. Not dealing with the low life who think they can treat ladies like that is encouraging them to behave like that more. I was born in Morocco  I grew up in Morocco and never behaved in a manner that insults people men or women. Morocco is heading toward a culture where men have become lazy with too much time in their hands smoking and dealing drugs. Stealing and picking on people who go on about their daily business. Most men are now relying on their wifes, sisters, mothers and girlfriends to feed them. The shameful things is they don't care about where the money comes from. Stand up to them and humiliate them is the answer.

Your thoughts are spot on. They are all like that.
They are lazy and would prefer to be in a Cafe other than anything else.
Smile, wave, keep walking!!

Lynn1964 wrote:

Oh so all's ok while you all live in your happy lovely dovey bubble....hmmm
Maybe if you went through the *** I went through you would not have all the sugar and spice to say....all Moroccan people are not bad of course not...but many and I mean MANY are duping innocent decent people....that is WRONG ! Many Moroccan people are very very hypocritical...many tell lies...common occurrence...to me this not ok...so you enjoy your happy life in your bubble....hope it stays that way for you...if it does...your the minority...but don't condemn people like me that have been to hell and back simply because I fell in love..SAME AS YOU ...I did nothing wrong...I fell in love...after being relentlessly pursued...I did all for us both...he did nothing...apart lie and cheat and wait for it all to be handed to him on a silver platter..while he sat on his lazy ass being pampered by mum and sisters every day...so...condemn me all you want I don't give a toss...cos if just one woman reads my posts and it saves her from a Moroccan parasite...then I have done what I came to do...go and drink your mint tea...keep your Moroccan man happy...cos that's whats more important yea ?...

Beyond rude, arrogant, and entitled .. why couldn't you get a man in your country? Modern Moroccan women are smart babe, sorry you could only get an old school mama's boy, that didn't feel motivated to work or impress you? Dear God, they let you losers get away with so much on this forum.

Hi All, we should all try to stay clam and nice in the forum. Everyone has good experiences and bad experiences in all cultures not just in Morocco. We should talk about our experience in a cilvil way to not offend the innocence. I understand many feel betrayed and many feel cheated but the same can be said by other cultures including the West but that doesn't mean we paint a picture on everyone. This forum is supposed to help people make their own minds up but we should act professional and peaceful and there are way to express your feelings without using words that can hurt the nice one. Thank you

The world is so full of negativity it's sickening.

I love the clarification to ignore attention from  "those you don't want."

I'm a older big balck beautiful woman and I'd love to be somewhere where male attention would be so excessive that I'd tire id it.  Gotta say, if a right one is saying something, I'm planning to listen. 

I'm nosy, did meet your hubby there? Online?  Do you know much about dating culture?

Which means she's asking for it, right? Your answer and tone is ridiculous and you sound like you'd be fun at parties. She seems like she is genuinely curious and your condescending tone isn't very helpful. After this forum is here to help other expats, our am i mistaken?

I never had this problem and lived in Morocco for 5 years pre pandemic, and now returning in a few weeks. I would first look at how you dress. Obviously no shorts and tanktops. This is a Muslim country, and it is best to respect the tradition of covering your legs and arms.

Good luck!

@Shannan I am glad I dont speak darija or french. What they would say about me? hahahhahah

Hello all,

Some posts have been removed from this thread.

Since this this a public forum, I kindly request you to be respectful to all members and religious communities.

Thanks and happy new year 2023!

Yoginee

½ûÂþÌìÌà team

@Shannan Hello, my name is Abdel Hakim. You cannot easily understand the Moroccan character. You must live with them indoors, because most Moroccan families are still conservative and do not accept men mixing with women. In general, Moroccans are loving and generous to others.

You can browse some topics on Moroccan culture through this site. Thank you

[link moderated]

@Shannan

What's to understand?

Like anywhere else you have wolves and men. One thing you should not do is wear close fitting clothes, bright red lipstick, etc. Look around you, though people are the same all over the world, Moroccan women are conservative dressers in public. Follow suit. Do not smile too much at these guys nor give too much eye contact. You seldom see a Moroccan female walking around cafes by herself. At many cafes, these guys are smoking their pipes and getting high. Then here you come walking around them. You are different. You stick out like a sore thumb. Be careful dear. This would happen in America or any other country where a bunch of men are gathered.

Question...

Why are you living in Morocco as a single American woman?

@TominStuttgart

Spot on.

@zackbenjamine hahaha no bro I’m a moroccan and I’m with a philippino girl in a relation for 3 months and we understand each other .

@zackbenjamine from the way of your unswear you look racist , I’m moroccan and in a relation with a philipino girl for 3months now and we still understand each other.

@urbanshopping101 if you don’t like moroccan people this much why you are coming to Morocco there is much places better than Morocco to see .

@Shannan My experience was actually positive. I have been to those cafes and nobody harassed me, infact waiter was always nice and polite to me.

@Assah 20

Why not?   Didn’t realise Morocco was backwards, like your sentiments!

@Goldkhalifa

So, women are the weaker sex, are they?

Good Lord! What century are you living in?

@RR@ No, Morocco is not really backwards. Lol. It is somewhat conservative, laid back, nice. I love your answer, "Why not"? 😀

hello

i hv been living in Morocco for the past 32 years.

like men all decent cafes are also filled with women.

if you go into a cafe in lane and dark places then sure you may find

only men but even there i do not see any issues.

the waiter will be very polite and wellcoming  because it is his job.

by âssers well depends where the cafe is

Morocco is a safe country for women..

@Goldkhalifa I just wanted to comment on some points.

In Islam, especially during the time of Rasul Allah salalahu alayhis wa salam, women participates in battles. They even rode horses and fought with swords. Not only that, they also tended to the wounded Muslims. Prophet Muhammad salalahu alayhis wa salam never forbade them to do so.

As far as running a country, no, it is not permissible for women to be a ruler of a nation. There is a Hadith in which Rasul Allah salalahu alayhis wa salam said (paraphrasing) that a nation which is ruled by a women is destined to fail.

Allah swt said in Al Quran that men are the protectors of women. However, women are allowed to work and the money they earn is for them. It isn't for them to have to use it to maintain his children, their household, etc. It's for them to use it on whatever they please and her husband has no right to make her use it on matters that are solely his responsibility. If she does wish to, by her own free will and without pressure, she may do so. In the case of being widowed and such, it's the Muslim community that needs to assist her in supporting her children, not for her to get a job and her earnings are used for that.

Islam says one thing, but Muslims and so called "Muslim" countries do another. But I won't get into that because even Saudi hijacked Arabia is guilty of doing haram things, against Islam.

As Muslims, we need to educate ourselves according to the Quran, authentic hadiths, and appropriate scholars of Islam. Not be guided by paid scholars, nor Muslim governments that don't even follow the Sunnah. If we don't learn from authentic Islamic sources, we will never be able to tell when we are being lied to and taken for a ride.

Hello everyone,

please note that religion and politics should stay out of the forum.

I invite you to read the MOROCCO FORUM CODE OF CONDUCT for better comprehension of guidelines.

I am temporarily closing this thread as I need to review it in regards to what I said above.

Thank you

Bhavna