禁漫天堂

I'll come back to you on this when I'm on my tab or computer.

The problem is they place too much emphasis on grammer and not enough time is spent learning to speak.

colinoscapee wrote:

The problem is they place too much emphasis on grammer and not enough time is spent learning to speak.

Virtually everyday I meet someone who knows a whole lot of English words but doesn't know how to pronounce them.

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

I just saw this pop up online at Vietnam Express.

It sounds like you have a situation that's a little more than similar to Indonesia's pigs ear of English language training in schools.
Kids here start in grade 7, do 6 years of lessons, but come out at the back end (as in bum hole) with nothing ... or maybe not.

If you have the same set of problems, you have crap English teachers, a crap curriculum, and low paid teachers who have bugger all interest in improving their skills because nobody will pay them, or even thank them, for their efforts.
You very probably have better schools where English is spoken as a first, or close to first, language, those producing the vast majority of English speak graduates.

There are many problems, especially with the spoken word.

Many/most teachers:

were unable to differentiate between the S and SH sounds (Try sitting down - Yes, I have a video of a couple of teachers getting that wrong)
were unable to pronounce the voiced or silent TH sounds
missed the last letter from words that require it to be understood
are unable to pronounce words ending in MB (Comb. thumb)
are unable to pronounce some diphthongs
have a very limited vocabulary
have atrocious grammar skills

The national curriculum doesn't fit the students' needs, not that of the country - It teaches grammar to kids with no vocab - Drrrrr
Teacher training was bloody useless
the text books are great ... for use as rough toilet paper
the national exams are stuffed full of errors

Training funds are spent on boosting teachers' salaries, so there's no training.
Few teachers give a flying poop because salaries are a joke

Back to "... or maybe not.".

In fact the kids do learn something, but not enough to allow them to hold much by way of a conversation in English. What they do learn is enough to get them started if they experience a decent training course at some point, but not a traditional course as they just fail to learn anything from yet more boring lessons with more of the same crappy content.
As the main problem is a notable lack of vocabulary, that has to come first, but it has to be done in a more interesting way that introduces useful skills rather than vocab lists to fall asleep not remembering.
I tested a system that worked on observed issues -聽 the results were nothing short of stunning.
The big secret is working on the teachers, not the students

Saying that, the thread title is still a winner because the need for English skills will go away when tech takes over.
I recall early translation software (13 years ago) being about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike, but we're to the point where going on your jollies to a country where no bugger speaks your language is hardly a problem as Google translate is easily good enough to look after simple communications such as 'Do you have English fish and chips?', 'where are the toilets?', and 'How much for doggy doggy?'

I'm assured tech will never take over from people when it comes to high level translation, just as drivers can never be replaced and telephones will never be needed in England because they have plenty of telegram boys.

I give language training about five years (at the most) before it's a pointless waste of time.听
More - I predict a massive shock wave running through TEFlers as they realise their careers are well and truly knackered, and some universities are going to wobble around in fits of 'we didn't see that coming' when their seriously profitable language training courses suddenly lose all their paying customers.

I may have engaged in the odd conversation on this subject, but few accept the end of days is coming - They'll get a serious shock when the Valkyries are flying around with phones and a bluetooth, or maybe phones (or just a 5G watch) and Elon's brain implant tech.

5 years - You saw it here first.

I read an article years ago that stated brick and mortar language schools will become obsolete in the near future.

I wonder what mental giant came up with this brain-dead idea.

colinoscapee wrote:

I wonder what mental giant came up with this brain-dead idea.

A thinker.

The reason schools ban phones is discipline issues, but that's down to lazy or incompetent teachers, not the students or their phones.

If phones are allowed in the workplace, they MUST be used in schools as learning to handle them appropriately is a life skill. Add a smartphone's amazing usefulness as an educational tool, and that makes them essential classroom items.

colinoscapee wrote:

I read an article years ago that stated brick and mortar language schools will become obsolete in the near future.

All language learning, not just bricks and mortar places.

Fred wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

I read an article years ago that stated brick and mortar language schools will become obsolete in the near future.

All language learning, not just bricks and mortar places.

I guess we'll just all be wearing universal translator badges like on Star Trek

Fred wrote:

If phones are allowed in the workplace, they MUST be used in schools as learning to handle them appropriately is a life skill. Add a smartphone's amazing usefulness as an educational tool, and that makes them essential classroom items.

Respectfully disagree.听 There's a difference between an adult (at work) and a child (starting at grade 6 per the article) when it comes to personal responsibility.听 Now, could I be convinced to start at grade 10 for high school?聽 Probably.听 That's enough time to take care of the life skill question.

Fred wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

I wonder what mental giant came up with this brain-dead idea.

A thinker.

The reason schools ban phones is discipline issues, but that's down to lazy or incompetent teachers, not the students or their phones.

If phones are allowed in the workplace, they MUST be used in schools as learning to handle them appropriately is a life skill. Add a smartphone's amazing usefulness as an educational tool, and that makes them essential classroom items.

Cant agree.

If you think students are going to use them in class for educational purposes,you are living on Mars.

Depends on the school, the native teachers and in some cases the consultants supplying the teacher.

colinoscapee wrote:

If you think students are going to use them in class for educational purposes,you are living on Mars.

Only if the teacher can't keep discipline.

SteinNebraska wrote:

Respectfully disagree.听 There's a difference between an adult (at work) and a child (starting at grade 6 per the article) when it comes to personal responsibility.听 .

Personal responsibility - Being polite - Taking care of school property - Respect - Homework on time ... but for Christ's sake don't teach them how to use a phone responsibly or the devil will stick flaming pitchforks in your goolies for eternity.

Adult at work "likely" to look after property, but then when they leave (not all) happy to drop litter, spit..

Kids at schools.. depends on who teach them last, recently had first hand experience. Most that I saw only wanted to play games.. Vietnamese teacher happy to sit at back of room in their phones.

I saw both primary and secondary recently, little or no difference in ability from primary grade 4 - secondary grade 6.

Most that I spoke to didnt have books relevant to lessons.

For some reason schools prefer to teach word contractions which for the most part is fine.. but in the case if they're their and there using the shortened version of they are caused some blank looks..

Fred wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

If you think students are going to use them in class for educational purposes,you are living on Mars.

Only if the teacher can't keep discipline.

Maybe things are different in Indonesia, but here in VN breaking rules and laws is a national pastime.

What I am going to state here may have nothing to do with Vietnam; but just to show you how the students use their phones in school, and the schools have no way of controlling the students. For their national exam (baccalaur茅at) every year, the Algerian government just shuts off the whole internet system of the country for 3-4 days from 8:00am to 5:00pm so that the students can't use their phones to cheat on the exam!
Cheating was so rampant that they have to put a stop on it!
All businesses just have to put up with this practice for 4 days every year.
So there. That tells you to let the students use phones in the classroom!

Colinoscapee, you are absolutely right聽 when you say:聽 "If you think students are going to use them in class for educational purposes,you are living on Mars."

And teachers have a difficult time disciplining students when it comes to phones.

The only way is to ban phones on school grounds! But again how do you control if schools don't have the finance to do it?

colinoscapee wrote:

Fred wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

If you think students are going to use them in class for educational purposes,you are living on Mars.

Only if the teacher can't keep discipline.

Maybe things are different in Indonesia, but here in VN breaking rules and laws is a national pastime.

Pretty much the same here .... but a negative attitude changes nothing.
I insist students have phones on their desks, turned on but set to silent.
They learn responsible use quickly and rarely break the rules. The things are a dictionary, an encyclopedia, a voice recorder, and a video camera - Way too useful not to have in class.
It's just a matter of asking the kids to behave properly. If a teacher can't manage that, they should bugger off out of the game.
I will be clear - I teach conversation and culture, a subject that's far apart from normal lessons - It requires a totally different skill set and attitude than you would normally expect, but discipline remains (albeit with a different set of rules).

I really don't see any problems with phones in class, but I know the debilitating restrictions caused by not having them.

Can you hear me, Major Tom?

well, it would help to spell 'grammar' :-)

... but i agree.

but i would expand differently ...

(but this is not based on VN schools per se, but English teaching generally)

far too much time/emphasis on a whole lot of technical terms and usage that they don't actually need to know to actually speak English: in fact, it just makes it much more difficult for them

and, btw, my future DIL did some sort of English exam a while ago for uni (?) and her actual English is simply non-existent

myvietnam wrote:

... but i agree.

but i would expand differently ...

(but this is not based on VN schools per se, but English teaching generally)

far too much time/emphasis on a whole lot of technical terms and usage that they don't actually need to know to actually speak English: in fact, it just makes it much more difficult for them

and, btw, my future DIL did some sort of English exam a while ago for uni (?) and her actual English is simply non-existent

Yes

If you visit a local public school you can see where the problem starts.

Quite often native English speaker will teach one thing based on course material provided, lesson ends.. Vietnamese teacher takes over and often teaches something completely different.

A lot of the independent agencies supplying teachers to schools bypass levels required for students relying simply on listen and then repeat.

Ask local grade 6 to recite alphabet and they can mostly do so.. write it down some letters out deliberately and the students do not read just recite so will not see missing letters.

Same with numbers..

Walk into any class... Play game .. play game

Ye godz - Classes sound like they're total crap

This quote from the VN Express says it all, really:

"The current teaching style focuses only on structure and grammar, and without practicing more it will be really difficult for me to be able to talk to a foreigner."

Yes, structure and grammar are all good and well when you want to master a language properly, but first you have to be able to talk and understand. Just like a child learning to talk and respond before it begins to write.

relating to Google Translate, i beg to differ., Google Translate is actually very dangerous for any clear and accurate understanding.

It constantly makes the most astounding outrageous errors. sometimes even with a single word, eg it couldn't even get 'to close' and 'to be close' right; far more egregiously, it constantly changes 'I/me' to 'you. Just think about the impact that has on meaning.

i have noticed that sometimes it simply deletes text it deems unnecessary.

it is simply appalling - yet so many people use it

i wonder how many relationships it has destroyed because of it outrageous errors

If you must use, always use the Reverse Translate feature to see just how (in)accurately your English was translated into Vietnamese - and attempt to correct.

For a much better dictionary, but only for single words, i strongly recommend laban.vn

myvietnam wrote:

relating to Google Translate, i beg to differ., Google Translate is actually very dangerous for any clear and accurate understanding.

Today ... but 10 years ago it was seriously rubbish.
At the moment it's good for tourists and basic stuff, but what will the unknown country bring?

Tech doesn't stand still, or are you using a ZX81?

I used Google Translate to communicate with our maid's sister who fell in for her when our maid was highly pregant. Our maid spoke reasonable English but her sister didn't, but she looked over my shoulder as I typed instructions and it seemed to work fine. Yes, basic stuff, no translations of literary masterpieces :-)

You are correct.
I teach pro bona twice a week.
Just to make them speak in the classroom is a big deal.
Shyness? Or I think it is rooted in the culture aspects of "loss of face".
They don't want to speak because they cannot speak perfectly.
Trying to convince them that you have to mistake to learn is not an easy task.
My students are from 14 to 44, 80% females.

"relating to Google Translate, i beg to differ., Google Translate is actually very dangerous for any clear and accurate understanding."

It is more than good enough. We are talking basic understanding. Not finer details.
I use it in the classroom and my students have fun some time since it translate literally, I'm told.

More than good enough for basic use and fun to use.

it seems obvious that you don't know Vietnamese and you do not CHECK the translation/s for accuracy

so you are hardly able to comment usefully

as an additional comment, translation to/from a language you don't actually know is actually a very tricky and fraught thing ... you can't actually KNOW just how accurate any translation reflects your meaning. you just accept it in blind and unknowing faith

and Vietnamese is particularly fraught: despite all the diacritics, they simple don't have words for many familar English concepts eg 'home'. the Portuguese priest who did the original creation/conversion to Latin alphabet was particularly lazy, stupid, and arrogant, but the mess he left cannot be corrected too much now, although they could add new words (such as 'home'). The Govt has looked at it and they are trrhinking of fiddling around the edges to possibly tidy it up a fraction, but they recognise that nothing much can be done, and new technology etc will commonly just mean plain adoption or Vietnamisation of English words eg 'c峄慶 tai' for 'cocktail' (although there IS actually a Viet phrase apparently - 'r瓢峄�u pha nhi峄乽 th峄�').

and, relatedly, Vietnamese (so-called) English speakers usually have a very poor understanding of English - but how would non-English speaking Vietnamese ever know if the English they were being told was remotely correct or accurate?

in any case, English among native English is also increasingly poor and inaccurate, driven by a failing education system ourselves, and the ever increasing domination of SMS and related 'communication'.

BTW in reply to your snarky comment, up to recently i owned (by some measures) the largest computer services business in Australia, and have been in the computer business for 30 years up to now

myvietnam wrote:

and Vietnamese is particularly fraught: despite all the diacritics, they simple don't have words for many familar English concepts eg 'home'. the Portuguese priest who did the original creation/conversion to Latin alphabet was particularly lazy, stupid, and arrogant, but the mess he left cannot be corrected too much now, although they could add new words (such as 'home').

I've never learned that Francisco de Pina was 'particularly lazy, stupid, and arrogant' , but if you said it with such conviction, I guess you must have some evidences to back up your statement.听 Anyway, that's not this reply is about.听 I'm only writing this to gently correct your assertion that "despite all the diacritics, they simple don't have words for many familar English concepts eg 'home' ".听

Yes, there are Vietnamese terms for 'home'. I use plural because there are two terms.听 They're 'm谩i 岷�m' and 't峄� 岷�m'.听 Just because you don't know them (you do speak Vietnamese, do you, as indicated in your profile?) doesn't mean they don't exist.听

The Govt has looked at it and they are trrhinking of fiddling around the edges to possibly tidy it up a fraction, but they recognise that nothing much can be done

My fervent wish in re Vietnamese language is that the government would leave it alone, or better yet, restore it to the way it was 45 years ago.听 It had always been a language rich in idioms, adages, proverbs, and expressions, but now, almost everything shaded with culture has disappeared, and in their places are terms with incorrect meanings or no meanings at all.听

My biggest pet peeve is the verb 'li锚n l岷�c' ('contact' in English).听 Sometime in the late '70s or early '80s, the government decided that it must be replaced by a new verb, 'li锚n h峄�' (which means 'relationship', a noun, not a verb).听 The result of the mandatory change is that people no longer 'contact' a shop on the phone but instead, 'have a relationship' with the shop's phone number.听 Wonderful 'fiddling around the edges', eh?聽 In the last 40 years, the government didn't just 'tidy up a fraction', they've pretty much mangled the language.

There are hundreds of mistakes which the government created when they forcefully overhauled an established language, but again, this is not a post for it.

myvietnam wrote:

Vietnamisation of English words eg 'c峄慶 tai' for 'cocktail' (although there IS actually a Viet phrase apparently - 'r瓢峄�u pha nhi峄乽 th峄�').

Vietnam is not the only country that adopts English words into their vocabulary.听 Even the overly proud and inflexible French whose 485-year-old Acad茅mie Fran莽aise and 26-year-old Toubon Law (both were created to protect the French language) can't stop the creeping of Anglicisms in their everyday life or in their renowned Petit Larousse dictionary either.听 For instance, 'courriel' and 'remue-m茅ninges' are perfect French terms, but French youth and professionals do not use them.听 Instead, they say 'email' and 'brainstorming'.听

Vietnamese is the same way, they peppered their sentences with French words back in the days (many still do, even the very young who have no idea the words are French) and now they use English randomly in their vocab because sometimes it's easier and faster to use other languages.听

BTW, the Vietnamese word for 'cocktail' has always been 'r瓢峄�u pha' (mixed drink) and not 'r瓢峄�u pha nhi峄乽 th峄�' ('drink that is mixed with many things').

Ciambella says "My fervent wish in re Vietnamese language is that this government leaves it alone, or better yet, restore it to the way it was 45 years ago."

Budman1 says: That and a few other things.

Rick

myvietnam wrote:

it seems obvious that you don't know Vietnamese and you do not CHECK the translation/s for accuracy

*snip*

up to recently i owned (by some measures) the largest computer services business in Australia, and have been in the computer business for 30 years up to now

It seems obvious that your business acumen does not translate into the ability to use the quote function...

"recently i owned (by some measures) the largest computer services business in Australia, and have been in the computer business for 30 years up to now"

Whatever does that have to do with anything? Google translate is more than good enough for me.

And since I'm not English speaking, I don't understand "snarky". it is not in my English dictionary.
What does it mean?

Snarky (snarky) cannot be translated into VN. Neither to my聽 native tongue either.

c谩u k峄塶h ?

RealPommy wrote:

"recently i owned (by some measures) the largest computer services business in Australia, and have been in the computer business for 30 years up to now"

Whatever does that have to do with anything? Google translate is more than good enough for me.

And since I'm not English speaking, I don't understand "snarky". it is not in my English dictionary.
What does it mean?

Snarky (snarky) cannot be translated into VN. Neither to my聽 native tongue either.

Here you go:

"Snarky" is used to describe speech with a specific emotional tone, typically a form of sarcasm informed by cheekiness and a mild, playful irreverence or impudence. When the dominant intent of the communication is to express or convey direct or judgmental rudeness, the sense of mild cheekiness is lost and the overall communication crosses the line to become "snide."