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No, I don't feel at home here because of the language barrier. For me, it's been 5 years & I still don't have it mastered. I am, however, very good at being a Mime now & completely understand what it's like to be a deaf-mute!

This isn't because I'm stupid (I'm not). And it isn't because the people aren't friendly (they are).

I also find things like the banking, legal and postal systems to be unfriendly to success. More time is spent on how "Not" to do things instead of how "To" do them.

I sense a strong "resentment factor" here -- a political divide -- when it comes to life here. I didn't understand that it was because of Socialism-thinking and it took me a long time to realize Brazilians typically are not encouraged to be great achievers. This was very disappointing. There seems to be an ingrained attitude (even within the legal system) that stealing from someone who has property or valuables is OK. And I see this in some of the Brazilian laws and in the Court system.

My experience is still in the formation stages -- to be specific, the nature here is beyond compare; but,  the people, themselves, are the question.

Normally, from my travels, I've learned that we "get what we expect"  when it comes to other people and places. Whcih, would make it sound like I don't expect much from Brazil. But, that is far from true. I came here expecting only the best and fully prepared to give my own best in return -- which, even now, I still try to do. As a writer, I wrote a romantic novel based in Brazil ("A Reason To Live") and a beautiful song to go with it called "Love Song For Brasil" .... but, my heart knows a truth about how things are done here that is not very good, kind or beautiful.

Moved here long before the Covid so I am not what you are asking.
It must be difficult for those recently moving here. Even in normal times, it is tough, and many days/months to get proper documents.
Living here for a while, we do not see our friends (and family) for over a year. Now we are seeing vaccinations in our city, but not all family and friends are the same age, and waiting for vaccinations by age groups isolates many.

I was raised among people focussed on "high achievement" and making a contribution to eternal technical progress.  I hated most of my life because there was never any satisfying anyone, no matter what I did.  Recently, its become more apparent that nations come and go, empires come and go, even species come and go, nothing is forever. Vide e corte, if you don't have a good time and give pleasure to others around you, then you have done nothing.  I love Brazilians!

I don't get the complaints about learning the language,either....there are umpteen different tools available .... strangers lend me their phones and I show them how Google Tradutor works, even at the police station  ....Duolingo is great for those who would rather be led through life by a nose ring, while Virginia Langhammer is fascinating but you have to drive yourself, and then of course the best way is simple immersion ... my querida and her familia are very helpful and delighted with my progress, passo e passo ... 20 years ago I tried to learn Amharic, so Portuguese, with all the cognates, similar grammar, and the general similarity in societies, and even the same alphabet as English, is a snap by comparison .....

Ron Hevener wrote:

I also find things like the banking, legal and postal systems to be unfriendly to success. More time is spent on how "Not" to do things instead of how "To" do them.

I sense a strong "resentment factor" here -- a political divide -- when it comes to life here. I didn't understand that it was because of Socialism-thinking and it took me a long time to realize Brazilians typically are not encouraged to be great achievers. This was very disappointing. There seems to be an ingrained attitude (even within the legal system) that stealing from someone who has property or valuables is OK. And I see this in some of the Brazilian laws and in the Court system.

My experience is still in the formation stages -- to be specific, the nature here is beyond compare; but,  the people, themselves, are the question.

Great observations. 

I've been a student of Brazil, formally and informally, for almost fifty years, and lived here on and off throughout that time. I've seen many changes for the better, but probably not as many as I should have, or as quickly.  I don't know everything, but I can provide some perspective on some things.  I'm also a naturalized Brazilian citizen with no appreciable language barrier, so my view is that of a hybrid outsider/insider.

There is a strong "resentment factor", and probably an even stronger generalized "hostility factor" in Brazilian society.  They try very hard to hide it from visitors, and even mostly from themselves, but it keeps peeking out, especially the longer you're here.  Many expats become disillusioned with Brazil when they discover it.  It's not hard to identify those who don't:  we're still here.

My Brazilian husband laughs when I say this, but he nods, too:  Brazil isn't really a federation of states, it's a federation of families.  This is a highly transactional society, and one that is noted for having very low social cohesion.  Any cohesion, any loyalty, and any trust is largely limited to the family circle.  The more remote a person is from the immediate family, the less connection is felt for that person, and the more purely transactional, i.e, about gaining one's own advantage, the relationship with that person is.  Private charity is anemic in Brazil, and probably tracks the level of altruism in the society. The cordiality and friendliness are genuine, but they're less likely to express an ethical outlook than they are to represent the social lubricant that makes life livable, even pleasant, in what is often a classically Darwinian world.  Ronald Reagan's old adage, "trust but verify", doesn't just apply to adversaries in Brazil, it applies to most friends, too.  If not more.

As might be expected from this, the goal of every sale in Brazil is to maximize the profit of that isolated transaction, without reference to any possible future business.  The concept of building a loyal clientele through outstanding service is foreign to Brazil, because the concept of "a loyal clientele" doesn't exist.  One reason that I always note a salesperson's name and call them by name the next time I'm in the store is to enjoy the look of shock that always results (sometimes, the service improves, too.)  For the same reason, getting warranty service from a Brazilian company is an exercise in futility.  The contrast with the Brazilian operations of international companies is notable, but does not seem to be influencing the domestic competition.  This is one reason that I expect Amazon to do very well here.

People perceived as foreigners hold an ambiguous position.  They are treated as honorary members of the upper class, which results in a sometimes extravagant show of respect , but naturally carries a certain level of resentment, too.  There's also a thin but very deep thread of xenophobia in Brazilian culture, which adds to the resentment.  All foreigners are assumed to be rich, and as non-Brazilians (easily identified because they don't speak the language), not entitled to even the minimal social solidarity that Brazilians practice toward each other.  This can make them seem like excellent potential income sources in the eyes of many Brazilians.  Distressingly, this often includes at least some of the in-laws of expats married to Brazilians.  There's little sympathy in Brazil for a person who has assets but can't or won't protect them.  That lack of sympathy can extend to the legal system, which is one reason that it's good to stay out of that if possible.

The banking and postal systems are not necessarily unfriendly to success, but they certainly are indifferent to the needs of non-Portuguese speakers.  Becoming impatient is absolutely counterproductive, and  a waste of time. Everything professional takes longer in Brazil.  I'm batting 1000 so far with Brazilian banks, in part because, when I have serious banking business to do, I accept the probability that banking is ALL that I'll be able to do that day.   The Friendly Brontosaurus is the most sure-fire approach to this kind of activity, and if the FB doesn't speak good Portuguese but has a Portuguese-speaking sidekick, success is practically assured.

Brazil has never had a socialist government, and I don't expect that it ever will:  this is too individualistic a society.  But there certainly is an aversion, sometimes bordering on contempt, for hard work.  The roots are cultural, not political.

Portugal had no equivalent of English yeoman farmers, so people like that didn't establish Brazil's settler ethos.  Rather, it was younger sons of noble and near-noble families, whose objective was to amass as much wealth with as little work as possible, ideally by finding mines of precious metals, and when that failed, by producing agricultural staples through slave labor.  From the very beginning, society's "winners" -- and so, society's models --  were the people who didn't have to work hard, and society's "losers" were the people who did.  And in a country with no Winter where you can practically eat the scenery, not much hard work is required to achieve subsistence.  For many Brazilians, the Puritan virtues of thrift, hard work, and sobriety are like many of the more general Christian virtues:  entirely admirable, and well worth practicing.  Someday!

Abthree, thank you for expressing so well the things I find to be true (and giving further insight into them).

I, for one, am not here in Brazil to have parties. I'm here to work. To build and get things done.

I wrote a whole response to your comments & erased it because it was too private. But, it crystalized my thinking on all of this. And I have your observations to thank for that.

Tchau.

Great observations. 

I've been a student of Brazil, formally and informally, for almost fifty years, and lived here on and off throughout that time. I've seen many changes for the better, but probably not as many as I should have, or as quickly.  I don't know everything, but I can provide some perspective on some things.  I'm also a naturalized Brazilian citizen with no appreciable language barrier, so my view is that of a hybrid outsider/insider.

There is a strong "resentment factor", and probably an even stronger generalized "hostility factor" in Brazilian society.  They try very hard to hide it from visitors, and even mostly from themselves, but it keeps peeking out, especially the longer you're here.  Many expats become disillusioned with Brazil when they discover it.  It's not hard to identify those who don't:  we're still here...

THIS, THIS, THIS, this whole reply by abthree should be stickied and made mandatory reading before any foreigner enters Brazil !

The cultural and historical factors succinctly explained above cannot be overcome or changed.
I Repeat: The cultural and historical factors succinctly explained above cannot be overcome or changed.
Absorb them and if you cannot embrace them, at least learn to work them to your advantage as best you can.

Abthree perfectly sums up why foreigners become disillusioned with Brazil and end up whining that It's not fair and 'What's wrong these people', progressing to WHY CAN'T THEY SEE THINGS THE WAY I DO ??? CAN'T THEY SEE THEY'RE SHOOTING THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT AND SABOTAGING THEIR OWN FUTURES, THE UNEDUCATED THIEVES ?!?!? before packing up and leaving.

My thread 'A Year in Manaus - a bargain bin memoir' should be read alongside Abthree's response, I WAS a textbook case of 'Not fair, this is wrong, it's obvious you're doing it the wrong way, can't you see that this will not help you, if you offered 'x','y','z' service like we do in Europe you'd get things done 10 times faster and be 100 times richer blah blah blah whine whine whine'

However, some time ago, roughly 6 months after returning from Manaus, I made peace with Doce Brasil. I wrote my 'bargain bin memoir', it was definitely cathartic!. I see the good and the bad in Brazil. I am intensely proud of the good and can constructively discuss the bad, accept it and work around it as best as I can. I embrace the Brazilian quirks, especially those that come with my family in law (hint: late night phone calls requesting financial help)

You will see the transformation within me. Depending on how resilient and dynamic you are, it might strike a chord with you.

Thanks, Brian!

Here's a link to Brian's post  :

/forum/viewtopic.php?id=900959

Yeah, I just accept things the way they are, people for who they are, and how societies are. There is no uniform method on this planet. This also makes me chuckle seeing all the problems everywhere else. But I really do love it here. When I first came, I was like why does it take so long to go out and buy simple things, came to accept its how it is. Now the cool thing there - I am no where near stressed as much in life for embracing how slow things are. I quite enjoy the turtle mode!

Abthree's post is a classic. However, I would like to point out that the german settlers here in the south, particularly santa catarina, do seem to have a bit of the yeoman farmer about them - private land holders still with a northern European work culture. They can come across as racist sometimes (and are sometimes) but part of that is their "keep it in the family to survive" mentaility alluded to by abthree - it's a survival and enrichment clique.

The other thing I've renoticed since returning to Brazil is the vast disparity between the upper middle class upwards and everyone else, probably created by the education system. It's a two level society and will probably never change. If you're in the upper half you can have a great life here, in the lower half you can still have a "good" life, but it's quite limited - breaking out of it probably involves crime or emigration.

Most people in the USA do not fully understand how much the division has changed in the USA ... in the past 50 years the middle class has been systematically pillaged and gradually wiped out ... blue collar workers used to be able to own and live in decent houses but now they must rent ....and people are taking college loan debt and arrears on child support to their graves with them ....
Most people do not fully comprehend the difference between a million and a billion and a trillion ... someone like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk actually makes more money while he is taking a pee than 90% of the people in the country will earn in their whole lifetimes ...
The USA has become the most stratified country on earth, the top 1% are unimaginably wealthy these days ....

Thank you for all of that input.. I am going to read it all again.. I am REALLY excited about my trip there, but a bit daunted.. Any words of encouragement? 😬

carepickering wrote:

Thank you for all of that input.. I am going to read it all again.. I am REALLY excited about my trip there, but a bit daunted.. Any words of encouragement? 😬

Absolutely!  Brazil is a wonderful country, and it's possible to be very happy here; I am.  It's a complex place, and the sunny surface doesn't tell the whole story, but with some care, it's well worth exploring and knowing.

Just enjoy and get to know BH. Many places to enjoy from the beaches to This massive forested park, with rare species of birds, pumas, tapirs, monkeys, and other wildlife is best known for housing the world's largest and most extraordinary waterfalls - the Iguacu Falls -that extend for miles.
It is very different than the US. Go with the flow and have fun.

@abthree and Texanbrazil
Thank you SO much! All of this has been a bit of a whirlwind, and I have been pushing myself to learn PT. I've also been researching the country in great detail, but this is pretty far out of my comfort zone.. I guess it's a good thing  I'm not one to let that stop me.

Explore first and see what you think. Portuguese is a difficult and a whole different language from ingles. 
It is a slower pace.
After you explored BH, you should know if Brasil is right.
We will not overload you, but learn about getting money into Brasil, living expenses are good currently with a high US $ exchange.

It was good to read everyone's take on their time in Brazil. I will move to Brazil in a few months for school, so this is definitely helpful

after you guys made the move to move to Brazil. are you happy with your choice or do you regret it?

I'm doing a lot of research and moving to Brazil is looking like it will happen for me (maybe around April of 2022) but I know that there will be things that I will deeply miss from US.

Like in US there's no lines at the bank, no lines to buy groceries. I actually love the self check option at the groceries stores here where you just check out your own groceries. The safety is very important for me, but I'll be moving to Vitoria, Espirito Santo and my cousin guarantees that it's safe there.

Yeah, here in the US things get done, I remember in Brazil anything you need to resolve it takes days, and long hours in line and a lot of back and forth, sometimes for ridiculous reasons.

But financially speaking I'll be able to have a better quality of life that and that's why my consideration.

So are you happy that you moved to Brazil? Or do you wish you hadn't moved?
If you can tell what your experience has been like.

Sure. Married a great person and making friends.
There are no guarantees as to safety, With an election year and Brazil having issues in getting loans from other countries. in my opinion inflation is almost certain.
We are seeing high gasoline ($15.00 US /gal) and food prices now due to this Covid. Health care is overwhelmed. Many have turned to do what they can to survive. (outside the laws.)

Lines are even longer
I miss my trips back to the US. I have to have at least 2 a year.
I worked for a company that had an office in Brazil, I traveled around and decided when I retire, I would make the move. We talk about moving back to the US since the kids are grown. We will see how things go after the election.

I do my best to keep private about my experiences here in Brazil. I came here for love and marriage -- and to help my wife in her medical and legal challenges ...  In my life, I paid the price for my independence and I can work from anywhere because of that (I put every dollar I had into my products and marketing network). But, I was not prepared for a court system (probate) taking 20 years and counting of anybody's life ... something's wrong in Brazil. Forgive me if I recommend that you think MORE than twice before coming here. And, if that won't stop you .... well, be sure to learn the language & keep a phone for translation with you ... and GET A GOOD LAWYER!!!!! Or a HUNDRED!!!

Pardon my metric/imperial measures.... It is not $15 US,  but it is very high!!!!!!!! After being in us all my like I am still getting used to the metric system. 

I?ve been here permanently for almost a year; on and off for around three years prior. 

I suppose you could say that I?m ?happy? with my decision; I learned a long time ago that if you?re not happy in your hometown, you won?t find happiness anywhere.  Here I have family, a few friends, a home and everything else I need.  So what if I need to stand two hours in file at the bank?  I can spend that time BSing with the folks next to me, going over my paperwork, or making plans for whatever else I need to do that day. 

My relatives and in-laws here don?t see me as a ?cash cow?; nobody other than the occasional mendingo has asked for help or money.  I don?t make my origins or resources known.  I don?t bring up my origins or nationality, and nobody asks.

Everything here is - as has been stated before - stratified, but at the same time there is mobility, but it takes a lot more effort and thought than is worth it, if you wish to keep your principles and morals intact.

I don?t regret anything aside from not coming here sooner.

Hi all,

Someone mentioned life quality depending which half you are at-upper half vs. lower half. I am curious to learn which would make upper half in terms of monthly budget. Most of the apt I?ve been looking at on mansion global are 1 US million or higher. Seems like a pretty tall order to be in the upper half.

06/23/21

PotentialExpatSoCal wrote:

Hi all,

Someone mentioned life quality depending which half you are at-upper half vs. lower half. I am curious to learn which would make upper half in terms of monthly budget. Most of the apt I?ve been looking at on mansion global are 1 US million or higher. Seems like a pretty tall order to be in the upper half.

PotentialExpat

What you're reading almost certainly refers to the upper and lower half of the Brazilian income range. 

One of the most widely used metrics is the one from the IBGE, the Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics.  It's expressed in terms of Minimum Salaries -- currently a Minimum Salary is about R$1000/mo.  The ranges look like this:

Classes Sociais por Faixas de Salário-Mínimo (IBGE)

Classe       Número de Salários-Mínimo (SM)          Renda Familiar (R$) em 2020

A                        Acima de 20 SM                                  R$ 20.900,01 ou mais (or more)
B                        De 10 a 20 SM                                          R$ 10.450,01 a R$ 20.900,00
C                        De 4 a 10 SM                                          R$ 4.180,01 a R$ 10.450,00
D                        De 2 a 4 SM                                          R$ 2.090,01 a R$ 4.180,00
E                        Até 2 SM                                                  Até R$ 2.090,00

Anyone in Classes A and B, and the upper half of Class C, can have a good to excellent quality of life in most places in Brazil.  As another point of reference,  the Brazilian Government requires people applying for a Retirement Visa to have a monthly income of at least US$2,000, or about R$10,000 at the current exchange rate -- at the top of Class C, in other words.

Only the super-rich in Brazil can afford a US$1 million-plus apartment, but there are many very nice properties in nice neighborhoods in most Brazilian cities for half that or less.

Shop smart. Not with your wallet.

There may be an "f" category!
I just read an article that in Foz there was a 43% increase of Iguacu's living with a monthly income of up to R$89.
This is due to the drop in tourism jobs and many stores and dining jobs being reduced.  Many have lost their income provider by Covid
We have been trying to help the best we can without going through any government agency to be sure the whole R$1 gets to the families.