½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

Simon_miles wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking at moving to either Hanoi or Saigon in March.

I've been teaching for about 8 years, and have a Tefl certificate.

I'm aware of the requirement for a degree, which I don't have.

Can anyone confirm how likely it is that I'd get a teaching job without a degree, and what salary I'd likely be looking at?

I'm aware that I'd be working off the books, so to speak, which is on me.

I'm just really curious as to how likely it is that I'd actually get a job as and when I arrive.

The info online is pretty ambiguous, aside from stating that you 'officially' need a degree. I want to know what the score is if you don't.

For the purposes of clarity - I'm not a backpacker who just wants a months pay before heading eldewhere - this is my profession and I take it incredibly seriously. I just really want to live in Vietnam.

Many thanks in advance!

Simon

****

You can definitely get an ILLEGAL teaching job (not innocently working "off the books").

That will make ANY visa you possess illegal as well, and you would be a candidate for the immigration blacklist.

However, there is at least one longtime poster on this forum (with actual experience in teaching here) who will encourage you to go for it anyway,

But..."incredibly seriously"?

Seriously???

Getting a degree would be a major sign of taking your chosen "profession" incredibly seriously.

Then you would actually be a true professional in your profession...

Simon_miles wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking at moving to either Hanoi or Saigon in March.

Demand is lowest in the months following Tet until the summer holiday starting in June. Some say it's not as slow as it was in the past, but you may experience a couple of fallow months at the start. Budget accordingly.

Also, I'd be looking at options beyond the two major cities. Of course, those are the two biggest markets but these days there are more and more schools opening up nationwide.

I've been teaching for about 8 years, and have a Tefl certificate.

I'm aware of the requirement for a degree, which I don't have.

Can anyone confirm how likely it is that I'd get a teaching job without a degree, and what salary I'd likely be looking at?

The teaching market in VN is about 80% kids classes primarily on the weekends. Schools are looking for teachers who can show up at 8 am Saturday and Sunday morning, keep the kids entertained and be "flexible" (don't complain or freak out about the schedule, material, last minute changes, lack of resources, TAs, etc.). (The second largest segment is IELTS test prep.)

If this sounds like you, then you will likely get *some* work relatively quickly. You should note that most schools in VN still hire on a casual basis with 'employment agreements' or short-term contracts, schedule on a weekly basis and pay an hourly rate, which is normally somewhere between $15 - $25/hr. Rates are often quoted in USD, but paid in VND.

Of course, you should be directly contacting the schools by e-mail or through their facebook page. There are ads on this site (See "Jobs" in the menu above) and online, ex.

There are also numerous teachers groups and teaching jobs in (HCMC, HN, Da Nang, Nha Trang, Vung Tau, etc.)  pages on Facebook where you can network, get advice and find job ads.

I'm aware that I'd be working off the books, so to speak, which is on me.

I'm just really curious as to how likely it is that I'd actually get a job as and when I arrive.

The info online is pretty ambiguous, aside from stating that you 'officially' need a degree. I want to know what the score is if you don't.

For the purposes of clarity - I'm not a backpacker who just wants a months pay before heading eldewhere - this is my profession and I take it incredibly seriously. I just really want to live in Vietnam.

The requirement for a degree pertains to places that offer a full-time one-year contract, generally international colleges, international schools, and the major language institutes chains. For those who are on this type of contract, a work permit is necessary.

The main risk of teaching on a casual basis is that you have no recourse if a school decides to fire you or not pay you, no benefits, and no guarantees of anything. The vast majority of schools are focused on
the short-term and the whole situation is often very chaotic and unprofessional.

If you can show documentation for those eight years of teaching, you can get a work permit.

colinoscapee wrote:

If you can show documentation for those eight years of teaching, you can get a work permit.

I forgot about that.

Very true.

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Simon_miles wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking at moving to either Hanoi or Saigon in March.

I've been teaching for about 8 years, and have a Tefl certificate.

I'm aware of the requirement for a degree, which I don't have.

Can anyone confirm how likely it is that I'd get a teaching job without a degree, and what salary I'd likely be looking at?

I'm aware that I'd be working off the books, so to speak, which is on me.

I'm just really curious as to how likely it is that I'd actually get a job as and when I arrive.

The info online is pretty ambiguous, aside from stating that you 'officially' need a degree. I want to know what the score is if you don't.

For the purposes of clarity - I'm not a backpacker who just wants a months pay before heading eldewhere - this is my profession and I take it incredibly seriously. I just really want to live in Vietnam.

Many thanks in advance!

Simon

Edit your CV to include "master of euphemisms".

You can definitely get an ILLEGAL teaching job (not innocently working "off the books").

That will make ANY visa you possess illegal as well, and you would be a candidate for the immigration blacklist.

However, there is at least one longtime poster on this forum (with actual experience in teaching here) who will encourage you to go for it anyway, 

But..."incredibly seriously"?

Seriously???

Getting a degree would be a major sign of taking your chosen "profession" incredibly seriously.

Then you would actually be a true professional in your profession...

With respect, you know absolutely nothing about my background, my teaching credentials, or my personal circumstances.

If getting a degree, (some people can't afford a degree by the way), is your barometer for how seriously someone takes their chosen profession, then you're completely clueless.

Again - you don't know me, or how good/bad/serious/complacement I am at teaching. Having a degree doesn't make someone a good teacher, just as not having one doesn't mean the opposite.

I wasn't after a lecture, as I know what the score is. I just wanted to know how easy it would be to find work.

Thanks anyway!

johnross23 wrote:

Simon_miles wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking at moving to either Hanoi or Saigon in March.

Demand is lowest in the months following Tet until the summer holiday starting in June. Some say it's not as slow as it was in the past, but you may experience a couple of fallow months at the start. Budget accordingly.

Also, I'd be looking at options beyond the two major cities. Of course, those are the two biggest markets but these days there are more and more schools opening up nationwide.

I've been teaching for about 8 years, and have a Tefl certificate.

I'm aware of the requirement for a degree, which I don't have.

Can anyone confirm how likely it is that I'd get a teaching job without a degree, and what salary I'd likely be looking at?

The teaching market in VN is about 80% kids classes primarily on the weekends. Schools are looking for teachers who can show up at 8 am Saturday and Sunday morning, keep the kids entertained and be "flexible" (don't complain or freak out about the schedule, material, last minute changes, lack of resources, TAs, etc.). (The second largest segment is IELTS test prep.)

If this sounds like you, then you will likely get *some* work relatively quickly. You should note that most schools in VN still hire on a casual basis with 'employment agreements' or short-term contracts, schedule on a weekly basis and pay an hourly rate, which is normally somewhere between $15 - $25/hr. Rates are often quoted in USD, but paid in VND.

Of course, you should be directly contacting the schools by e-mail or through their facebook page. There are ads on this site (See "Jobs" in the menu above) and online, ex.

There are also numerous teachers groups and teaching jobs in (HCMC, HN, Da Nang, Nha Trang, Vung Tau, etc.)  pages on Facebook where you can network, get advice and find job ads.

I'm aware that I'd be working off the books, so to speak, which is on me.

I'm just really curious as to how likely it is that I'd actually get a job as and when I arrive.

The info online is pretty ambiguous, aside from stating that you 'officially' need a degree. I want to know what the score is if you don't.

For the purposes of clarity - I'm not a backpacker who just wants a months pay before heading eldewhere - this is my profession and I take it incredibly seriously. I just really want to live in Vietnam.

The requirement for a degree pertains to places that offer a full-time one-year contract, generally international colleges, international schools, and the major language institutes chains. For those who are on this type of contract, a work permit is necessary.

The main risk of teaching on a casual basis is that you have no recourse if a school decides to fire you or not pay you, no benefits, and no guarantees of anything. The vast majority of schools are focused on
the short-term and the whole situation is often very chaotic and unprofessional.

That's incredibly helpful info - thanks for your detailed response!

Simon_miles wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Simon_miles wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking at moving to either Hanoi or Saigon in March.

I've been teaching for about 8 years, and have a Tefl certificate.

I'm aware of the requirement for a degree, which I don't have.

Can anyone confirm how likely it is that I'd get a teaching job without a degree, and what salary I'd likely be looking at?

I'm aware that I'd be working off the books, so to speak, which is on me.

I'm just really curious as to how likely it is that I'd actually get a job as and when I arrive.

The info online is pretty ambiguous, aside from stating that you 'officially' need a degree. I want to know what the score is if you don't.

For the purposes of clarity - I'm not a backpacker who just wants a months pay before heading eldewhere - this is my profession and I take it incredibly seriously. I just really want to live in Vietnam.

Many thanks in advance!

Simon

Edit your CV to include "master of euphemisms".

You can definitely get an ILLEGAL teaching job (not innocently working "off the books").

That will make ANY visa you possess illegal as well, and you would be a candidate for the immigration blacklist.

However, there is at least one longtime poster on this forum (with actual experience in teaching here) who will encourage you to go for it anyway, 

But..."incredibly seriously"?

Seriously???

Getting a degree would be a major sign of taking your chosen "profession" incredibly seriously.

Then you would actually be a true professional in your profession...

With respect, you know absolutely nothing about my background, my teaching credentials, or my personal circumstances.

If getting a degree, (some people can't afford a degree by the way), is your barometer for how seriously someone takes their chosen profession, then you're completely clueless.

Again - you don't know me, or how good/bad/serious/complacement I am at teaching. Having a degree doesn't make someone a good teacher, just as not having one doesn't mean the opposite.

I wasn't after a lecture, as I know what the score is. I just wanted to know how easy it would be to find work.

Thanks anyway!

Except, based on your OP, you either don't "know the score" or you do but you are hoping to dance around cold, hard truth: without an "expert certification", any work you get here is illegal.

As Colin reminded us, it is possible for you to get an expert certification IF you can provide satisfactory documentation of your 8 years of experience.

Not to your satisfaction but to the government's satisfaction.

I guess the Vietnamese government is clueless too, because they made up the rule and established that as the barometer.

My reply was a reply for the sake of ANYONE reading this thread in the future, so hopefully they will be dissuaded from attempting to come here under similar circumstances.

If you don't mind taking the risk of violating the law here, by all means...

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Simon_miles wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Edit your CV to include "master of euphemisms".

You can definitely get an ILLEGAL teaching job (not innocently working "off the books").

That will make ANY visa you possess illegal as well, and you would be a candidate for the immigration blacklist.

However, there is at least one longtime poster on this forum (with actual experience in teaching here) who will encourage you to go for it anyway, 

But..."incredibly seriously"?

Seriously???

Getting a degree would be a major sign of taking your chosen "profession" incredibly seriously.

Then you would actually be a true professional in your profession...

With respect, you know absolutely nothing about my background, my teaching credentials, or my personal circumstances.

If getting a degree, (some people can't afford a degree by the way), is your barometer for how seriously someone takes their chosen profession, then you're completely clueless.

Again - you don't know me, or how good/bad/serious/complacement I am at teaching. Having a degree doesn't make someone a good teacher, just as not having one doesn't mean the opposite.

I wasn't after a lecture, as I know what the score is. I just wanted to know how easy it would be to find work.

Thanks anyway!

Except, based on your OP, you either don't "know the score" or you do but you are hoping to dance around cold, hard truth: without an "expert certification", any work you get here is illegal.

As Colin reminded us, it is possible for you to get an expert certification IF you can provide satisfactory documentation of your 8 years of experience.

Not to your satisfaction but to the government's satisfaction.

I guess the Vietnamese government is clueless too, because they made up the rule and established that as the barometer.

My reply was a reply for the sake of ANYONE reading this thread in the future, so hopefully they will be dissuaded from attempting to come here under similar circumstances.

If you don't mind taking the risk of violating the law here, by all means...

I do know the score. Or at least, I'm confident that I do - fairly clearly stated with the 'I know the score' comment in my initial post. I didn't come here looking for advice on the legal aspects.

I didn't post looking for patronising commentary on the legalities on what I'm looking to potentially do, but the likelihood of me actually being able to land a role.

I have no qualms with the governments guidelines and legal parameters, by the way. Nor have I ever stated that I do.

My initial post was pretty clear in it's intentions. As was your response.

Simon_miles wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Simon_miles wrote:

With respect, you know absolutely nothing about my background, my teaching credentials, or my personal circumstances.

If getting a degree, (some people can't afford a degree by the way), is your barometer for how seriously someone takes their chosen profession, then you're completely clueless.

Again - you don't know me, or how good/bad/serious/complacement I am at teaching. Having a degree doesn't make someone a good teacher, just as not having one doesn't mean the opposite.

I wasn't after a lecture, as I know what the score is. I just wanted to know how easy it would be to find work.

Thanks anyway!

Except, based on your OP, you either don't "know the score" or you do but you are hoping to dance around cold, hard truth: without an "expert certification", any work you get here is illegal.

As Colin reminded us, it is possible for you to get an expert certification IF you can provide satisfactory documentation of your 8 years of experience.

Not to your satisfaction but to the government's satisfaction.

I guess the Vietnamese government is clueless too, because they made up the rule and established that as the barometer.

My reply was a reply for the sake of ANYONE reading this thread in the future, so hopefully they will be dissuaded from attempting to come here under similar circumstances.

If you don't mind taking the risk of violating the law here, by all means...

I do know the score. Or at least, I'm confident that I do - fairly clearly stated with the 'I know the score' comment in my initial post. I didn't come here looking for advice on the legal aspects.

I didn't post looking for patronising commentary on the legalities on what I'm looking to potentially do, but the likelihood of me actually being able to land a role.

I have no qualms with the governments guidelines and legal parameters, by the way. Nor have I ever stated that I do.

My initial post was pretty clear in it's intentions. As was your response.

You wrote:

"The info online is pretty ambiguous, aside from stating that you 'officially' need a degree. I want to know what the score is if you don't."

It's not ambiguous, unless you choose to ignore the law.

Your *wink* *wink* acknowledgement of the 'official' requirements is a deft dance step, but for the sake of future casual readers, you are essentially asking if it's possible to be employed illegally.

Go ahead and roll the dice.

When you end up on the visa blacklist, you will find lots of helpful information here in other threads.

Eight years teaching experience by a native, first-language English speaker from the big seven (US, Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa) is better than most kids get. The kids deserve the best and many are keen to learn. The risks are only his.

Sounds like Simon is way above midpoint on the teaching-ability spectrum. Vietnam's gain, Philippines loss. Welcome dude! 

@OceanBeach92107 I certainly hope you are not in the field of Education, because in no way did you assist in guiding the individual above. Instead ***. You are wrong to assume that because one has a degree in a field that they are "serious about their profession". After reading your disappointing response to a person asking for help and assistance, it emphasized the reality that one may have a degree but is in no way intelligent. I studied and completed my Education Degree and yet choose a career in Agriculture. P****

@OceanBeach92107 I certainly hope you are not in the field of Education, because in no way did you assist in guiding the individual above. Instead you sought to insult and belittle. You are wrong to assume that because one has a degree in a field that they are "serious about their profession". After reading your disappointing response to a person asking for help and assistance, it emphasized the reality that one may have a degree but is in no way intelligent. I studied and completed my Education Degree and yet choose a career in Agriculture. Please add " Master of Ignorance" to your CV.
-@Monk_Adam

WOW! This is a pretty lively discussion.

I have respect for everyone here. However, what I learned about being an educator, did not make me a teacher. Even Buddha purported, that he was not a teacher.

I learned to inquire deeply, from my life experiences, college/university experiences brought me specific knowledge(s), not only that but wisdom through study of others of great wisdom(s). I learned/experienced learning not in my teacher education courses, but through my actual exposure to my students, listening with them, to them, laughing and sometimes crying with them, etc.

I believe I have stated before on this forum, educating comes through from ones heart, mind and soul. I stand with that. Jaime Escalante remains as a life long mentor, as do a few others.

To stand and deliver is the most rewarding work I have ever done, So, whether or I not I possess a degree of higher learning, educating others comes from, well, ... from from a higher place.

Here is a clip from the 1988 movie "Stand and Deliver"

youtube.com/watch?v=R3G41yupvhg

Richard P Feynman, a mentor of mine, also from a higher place, a clip from his 'educating' that of "Knowing versus Understanding"

[link under review]

Sincerely,

MAc

This was the key question asked by the OP in 2019 (this thread had been dormant since then, until today):

Can anyone confirm how likely it is that I'd get a teaching job without a degree, and what salary I'd likely be looking at?
-@Simon_miles

As Colin stated way back then, it's possible to get a teaching job without a degree if you can prove your level of competence and experience to the satisfaction of the government.

It's very difficult but possible.

Teaching in Vietnam without a degree in any other circumstance continues to be illegal in Vietnam and the chances of finding such an illegal job are even less now after covid and the crackdown on illegal immigration by the government.

So the answer is, almost certainly zero chance and probably no income whatsoever.

I'm glad I could be helpful.

P.S.:

My replies to threads such as this are usually an attempt to support the website code of conduct, which does not allow the promotion of illegal activity.

So when someone asks about doing something in Vietnam that's illegal, I'm often the first guy to directly say it's illegal.

I leave it to other people to be warm and compassionate in similar circumstances.

This was the key question asked by the OP in 2019 (this thread had been dormant since then, until today):
Can anyone confirm how likely it is that I'd get a teaching job without a degree, and what salary I'd likely be looking at?
-@Simon_miles

As Colin stated way back then, it's possible to get a teaching job without a degree if you can prove your level of competence and experience to the satisfaction of the government.
It's very difficult but possible.

Teaching in Vietnam without a degree in any other circumstance continues to be illegal in Vietnam and the chances of finding such an illegal job are even less now after covid and the crackdown on illegal immigration by the government.

So the answer is, almost certainly zero chance and probably no income whatsoever.

I'm glad I could be helpful.

P.S.:

My replies to threads such as this are usually an attempt to support the website code of conduct, which does not allow the promotion of illegal activity.

So when someone asks about doing something in Vietnam that's illegal, I'm often the first guy to directly say it's illegal.

I leave it to other people to be warm and compassionate in similar circumstances.
-@OceanBeach92107

Yea, OB, ...but you are still a warm compassionate, passionate guy yourself

MAC

This was the key question asked by the OP in 2019 (this thread had been dormant since then, until today):
Can anyone confirm how likely it is that I'd get a teaching job without a degree, and what salary I'd likely be looking at?
-@Simon_miles

As Colin stated way back then, it's possible to get a teaching job without a degree if you can prove your level of competence and experience to the satisfaction of the government.
It's very difficult but possible.

Teaching in Vietnam without a degree in any other circumstance continues to be illegal in Vietnam and the chances of finding such an illegal job are even less now after covid and the crackdown on illegal immigration by the government.

So the answer is, almost certainly zero chance and probably no income whatsoever.

I'm glad I could be helpful.

P.S.:

My replies to threads such as this are usually an attempt to support the website code of conduct, which does not allow the promotion of illegal activity.

So when someone asks about doing something in Vietnam that's illegal, I'm often the first guy to directly say it's illegal.

I leave it to other people to be warm and compassionate in similar circumstances.
-@OceanBeach92107

Yea, OB, ...but you are still a warm compassionate, passionate guy yourself
MAC
-@Mac68

Guess I need to listen to my wife and start wearing a mask again, Mac... 😉

Well, by now, it's all a moot point. The regulations are simply too strict for VN to be able to compete with other countries for foreign  teachers, whether or not they have a degree.

A friend of mine was recently poised to fly into HCMC and start a job search as one was wont to do previous to the virus thing. But he completely balked after learning about the visa limitations and getting this info from a unconfirmed source on the ground (paraphrased):

• Obtaining a work permit in Vietnam requires more red tape than China or anywhere else in Asia.
• Non-native speakers must have an IELTS band score of 7.5.
• It used to be a gray area; however, now the WP is highly regulated and can only be obtained through an employer. If you do not have all the required documents you cannot get one.
• For a native speaker with a degree and all the documents required for the WP, the cost was $700 and took over 5 weeks to receive.

        Any comment would be superfluous.

@OceanBeach92107 Please add

"M***" to your CV.

-@Monk_Adam

Since ADMIN is ignoring my report and doesn't care that you made an unnecessary and personal attack, I guess it's ok for me to suggest that you please add "***" to your CV.

Hello OceanBeach92107,

All reports are  taken into consideration. However, we did not see the need to remove the post in question.

Our main mission here is to help others by providing information, guidance and advice.

However, now it seems that matters have escalated. In order to prevent matters from worsening, the team and I have decided to close this thread.

If anybody wishes to discuss on this topic, they are more than free to create a new discussion on the Vietnam forum.

Cheers,

Yoginee

½ûÂþÌìÌà team

[DISCUSSION CLOSED]