禁漫天堂

Wow a lot of good questions. I really cannot help in other areas.
I know not many wood houses here and length of time to build is a nightmare here and insect and wood damage of the sub-tropical area.
I would have loved a wood framing at least, just for moving (adding) electrical outlets.
We have an older home and have nice wooden floors which can not be repaired due to the outlawing of the certain type of wood.
I even had issues replacing a wide and thick pool built in bench, because of the large pieces of wood is no longer available in Paranal. So went with laminated smaller boards

fred2brazil wrote:

Fellow member,

I've always found this forum helpful so far. Maybe some of you can help me along further in regards to some questions I have about building a house in Brazil. Maybe some of you have experience in building a house and have gone through some of these stages yourselves. All the help and comments would be much appreciated

Here are some specifics:

- The location would be in Arma莽茫o dos B煤zios, - click link on the left to see location

- The land is available to us (within the family). Transfer of ownership should be relatively easy, i.e. we are not buying the land from a random third party.

- The land is 15m x 30m (width by depth), thus 450m2 total.

- My wish would be to have a two-story house and a pool.

- The minimum square meter requirement in this community is apparently 100m2. It would be great to have something between 120m2 and 150m2, spanning over two-stories.

- The house would be a holiday house for us. We would probably visit once or twice a year for 2-4 weeks per visit. The rest of the period we are looking into letting the house to holiday renters. The long-term goal (5-10 years) is to sell the house for a profit.

- We have a Brazilian family member on location who could oversee (parts of) the construction of the house and pool.

- As for budgeting, I have yet to finalize this once I learn more about what everything costs. I hope to learn more about pricing through this forum. The numbers I have read online sometimes seem to good to be true.

General questions:

KIT HOUSES
I have heard and read a bit into so called kit houses - most of the ones I found online are made of wood. What is the general opinion on these?

Some seem relatively cheap and my worry is that these would not live up to the European standards that we are used to. That being said, and having been to Brazil plenty of times, many things won't live up to the European standards we are used to, so I've learned to come to terms with this

Does anybody have a good experience with kit houses, be it wood or brick?

ARCHITECTS
I've been told that many people build houses through architects. Apparently, they tell the architects their rough idea and plan and the architect goes to work, and in most cases even organizes workers and contractors etc.

Is it really as easy as this sounds? Furthermore, what would be an acceptable fee/price for an architect to design a 150m2 two-story house?

COSTS
Considering we already "own" the land - would a construction of a house (be it brick or wood, or a combination) be possible for around 100.000 BRL? (excluding pool)

---

I have plenty of other questions in regards to these topics, but I believe once I get a discussion rolling I am sure other things will come up and be answered.

Thanks in advance to anybody with help - this is much appreciated!

Kind regards,
Fred

With that size of a lot, you can indeed construct your house of R$100,000. The minimum cost of a house construction in that area is R$20,000 ( a kit would fit in this amount). I don麓t know if there麓s a regulation of your gated community of the amount. The average cost house construction in that area is
R$86,279. Architects range from R$2,600 to R$13,000. Average being R$5,538.

Kits usually are smaller in size at around 50 square meters. If you use wood you should opt for "madeiras de lei" which are termite resistant. Some concrete kits can go to around 100sq. meters.
So it麓s up to you. RJ has very high temperatures during summer so I would opt for brick construction -
the bricks laid flat for thickness of insulation. Better for temperature maintenance during air-conditioning operation. Brink construction is more attractive for renting during summer and also sells
way much better than wooden construction when it麓s time to market it. Your price would vary according to the quality of materials used and the duration (period) of construction.

Architects do arrange for contractors to execute the project. Usually one company or business has all of them in-house. Very easy.

robal

Here麓s a link for price estimates.



robal

Great information Doc

Does anybody have experience with building in Isopor?

For overall wall insulation? No. I instructed my pedreiro and architect to lay down the bricks horizontally for thicker walls and greater heat protection. For ceiling insulation, yes!

Laying more bricks in the process though rendered the project very expensive.

robal wrote:

For overall wall insulation? No. I instructed my pedreiro and architect to lay down the bricks horizontally for thicker walls and greater heat protection. For ceiling insulation, yes!

Laying more bricks in the process though rendered the project very expensive.

Good info! Thanks.

I actually also meant whether anyone has info or experience on building complete houses from isopor. I tried posting a link to a YouTube video, but it the link hasn't been approved yet.

It might not go back to be reposted. Repost the
link again so the rest can also examine it closer
and give suggestions!

robal

robal wrote:

It might not go back to be reposted. Repost the
link again so the rest can also examine it closer
and give suggestions!

robal

Sure, this is another example:

I see that the initial link I posted above now also works.

I just saw your first link and here麓s some of my comments on the Isopor project:

Pros:

1. Shorter construction time frame.

2. Economy of 15 -20% compared to the traditional brick and mortar construction. The
Isopor material is actually more expensive than bricks. The economy comes from shorter construction time and lesser builders/workers operating on site.

3. Very good heat insulation. Much better than bricks which conducts heat readily to the interior.

4. Interior temperature is easily maintained when running the air conditioner.

5. Humidity is kept out being Isopor is impermeable.

Cons:

1. Isopor degrades (outside environmental conditions) within 50 years. So, I麓m in doubt if the walls will maintain its stability when Isopor starts to disintegrate. Of course
I understand that the one used for construction is denser than the normal styrofoam!

2. And if you make additions to the house after having been completed... You need the extra help of a structural engineer if the addition would place excessive stress on the
building; where to make the cuts for the connection, etc. Another floor addition? Man,
I feel uncomfortable already! Yes, architects and engineers said that because of the metal supports plus the more cement added to the walls of the monolithic construction makes it 3 times stronger than the normal brick wall... Only time will tell.

3. You lose a lot of internal space because the walls are thick with 2 1/2 cm of cement
covering on each side of the wall.

4. Have you ever thought of drilling a hole to the wall to hang a heavy framed picture?
Do you think the 2 1/2cm thick cement covering the wall could support it?
Doubts that could be answered as time goes by...

robal

The other slight con that I have found is that only a limited number of construction companies are actually specialized in this type of construction. I have briefly chatted to some, but many are in the south of Brazil, or at least quite far from RJ / Buzios. Them having to come to Buzios to build the house increases the price substantially.

One quote, for a 150m2 home, two stories, I received was:
BRL 150.000 if it were built near Florianopolis (where the construction company was based) or BRL 200.000 if they had to bring their team to Buzios. That's quite a price difference. Mind you, this is just the foundation and walls, ready to receive the finish. Doesn't include any tiles or kitchen. I don't think this even includs doors or windows (still waiting for a detailed answer on this).

They did mention that they could train a team of workers. I would have to find a team of workers and they would train them. I'm not too sure as to how this would even work out. Train remotely? Via video calls? Would the new team only be given an instruction manual and work from there? This option doesn't seem too sensible, especially if this new team has never worked with these "innovative" materials before.

As a comparison, I received a quote for a fully finished (without kitchen) wooden house (100m2) for BRL 190.000 (supposedly with thicker walls than other usual wooden houses).

I'll update as I go. My goal is to build as soon as possible, given the current currency situation, but I don't want to rush things.

To put the foundation, the supporting walls and the roof runs from R$800 to R$1,500 per square meter. If the architect gave you R$1,000 then yeah it runs to R$150,000 which is the average cost. The "acabamento" or finishing touches that includes the tiles (floor and walls) would cost another R$500 per m2. So that麓s an amount of R$75,000. And don麓t forget the other cost of materials which also runs around R$500 per m2. That麓s another R$75,000. And don麓t also forget the fee of your architect and civil engineer which could run to another R$25,000. Grand total: R$325,000...

Wooden houses usually are double walled with "madeiras de lei" which are mostly termite resistant. The dollar against the reais has significantly went down to 4.89 reais.

robal

I'm hoping it won't be that expensive. I'll be looking for a construction company that does the "architecture" part as well, and can do the finishing (tiles, walls, etc.) also, or has close ties to companies that do. I've been quoted around BRL 500 per square meter for "finishing." That does drive the price up significantly.

The quotes I told you were all based on how a single company estimate the costs of construction with their own in-house professionals and builders. Impossible to avoid those expenses. The only probably exception is if I construct my house in Santa Catarina
where all my German friends are builders. Then labor would be cheap including the architects and engineers. In Brazil, it麓s whom you know...

robal

Hi Robal,

I'll definitely also be looking into our connections, to see if anybody we know works in or owns a construction company in Brazil, hoping that that would make it a bit cheaper.

fred2brazil wrote:

Hi Robal,

I'll definitely also be looking into our connections, to see if anybody we know works in or owns a construction company in Brazil, hoping that that would make it a bit cheaper.

Good luck and take care. Update us every now and then on your progress of the project!

robal

This is one of the first replies / quotes I received by a company, regarding mainly the "pre-work" that has to be done prior to "breaking ground" and starting the construction. Does this seem legitimate? I find it to be on the high side.

HONOR脕RIOS DE PROJETO EXCLUSIVOS:
O valor dos projetos descritos ser谩 de:
路 Entrada para in铆cio dos trabalhos:
R$ 1.500,00
路 Estudo preliminar de arquitetura:
R$ 2.500,00
路 Anteprojeto de arquitetura:
R$ 1.000,00
路 Projeto executivo de arquitetura:
R$ 2.400,00
路 Projeto de instala莽玫es el茅tricas e de dados:
R$ 1.200,00
路 Projeto de instala莽玫es hidrossanit谩rias
R$ 1.200,00
路 Projeto executivo de estrutura:
R$ 2.200,00
total:
R$ 12.000,00
- N茫o incluso o valor dos encargos relativos 脿 emiss茫o de nota fiscal (17%) de projeto.

fred2brazil wrote:

This is one of the first replies / quotes I received by a company, regarding mainly the "pre-work" that has to be done prior to "breaking ground" and starting the construction. Does this seem legitimate? I find it to be on the high side.

HONOR脕RIOS DE PROJETO EXCLUSIVOS:
O valor dos projetos descritos ser谩 de:
路 Entrada para in铆cio dos trabalhos:
R$ 1.500,00
路 Estudo preliminar de arquitetura:
R$ 2.500,00
路 Anteprojeto de arquitetura:
R$ 1.000,00
路 Projeto executivo de arquitetura:
R$ 2.400,00
路 Projeto de instala莽玫es el茅tricas e de dados:
R$ 1.200,00
路 Projeto de instala莽玫es hidrossanit谩rias
R$ 1.200,00
路 Projeto executivo de estrutura:
R$ 2.200,00
total:
R$ 12.000,00
- N茫o incluso o valor dos encargos relativos 脿 emiss茫o de nota fiscal (17%) de projeto.

That is the planning phase where the architect麓s/civil engineer麓s fee is part of. They are charging you half for now, the other half later (unless you got it for cheap). You should ask them
the total cost of fees involved. The 17% is the ICMS ( Imposto Sobre Circula莽茫o de Mercadorias e Servi莽os ) tax which you will also pay...

robal

And when they charge you for others like materials, labor and their additional fee
there will always be the extra ICMS tax...

All of that, if at 17%, ramps up the price quite a bit. I am assuming they will charge this on building a 150m2 house at BRL 1000/sqm also? Meaning that BRL 150.000 becomes (BRL 150.000 x 1.17) = BRL 175.500?

Yes!聽 And that's only the beginning. Brazil practices the orthodox way of tax colkection
called "impostos em cascata" he he and is really
very annoying. If you were constructing in Rio,
the more infuriated you will be if your property
Is close to the beach. The IPTU will be more than those far away. Have you ever considered
a kit where the price is straightforward?

17% would be ( 0.17 ) So the Grand Total I gave
you would be m煤ltiplied by 0.17 to obtain the final product which is your tax to be paid
on the property.

robal

robal wrote:

17% would be ( 0.17 ) So the Grand Total I gave
you would be m煤ltiplied by 0.17 to obtain the final product which is your tax to be paid
on the property.

robal

Right. But on just the construction costs which I was quoted, which was BRL 150.000, the grand total on just that would be 1.17*150.000 = BRL 175.500 (which is 150.000 + 25.500 (17%).

Yeah..... that all adds up, quickly.

I'm going to try and see what every step of the building process will cost.

What do you guys reckon the removal of all trees and bushes would cost? The entire 450m area of land is full of trees and bushes.

That would be a day麓s work for 2 men. 2 days for one. They usually charge R$16 per hour. I would say around R$300... Peanuts for a European like you!

robal

robal wrote:

That would be a day麓s work for 2 men. 2 days for one. They usually charge R$16 per hour. I would say around R$300... Peanuts for a European like you!

robal

Hey! One positive! At least that price is fair! By the way, the there are trees every where. It's not just a few trees, but the whole land is covered, plus tree root extraction will have to be done in order to prep the land for the foundation. I am guessing that a truck and possibly a bulldozer will have to be brought in.

fred2brazil wrote:

robal wrote:

That would be a day麓s work for 2 men. 2 days for one. They usually charge R$16 per hour. I would say around R$300... Peanuts for a European like you!

robal

Hey! One positive! At least that price is fair! By the way, the there are trees every where. It's not just a few trees, but the whole land is covered, plus tree root extraction will have to be done in order to prep the land for the foundation. I am guessing that a truck and possibly a bulldozer will have to be brought in.

Man, why do you love to suffer? You have to pay the truck and the bulldozer also! If there are large trees at the back, you should save them for shades during hot days. It also lowers the roof temperature. It just went up to around R$1,000...

Just a quick update for anybody following. We concluded the purchase of plot of land, meaning that a sales contract was drawn up and the land will be officially transferred hopefully still this year.

We also chose a constructor who is from the area and has experience building in this condominium/gated community. We are far from starting the build as before anything we still need to go over everything with the contractor, have the contractor apply for building permits, go over architectural drawings and plans etc. etc.

We were quoted a time of up to 6 months for the building permits to be approved. An additional 9 months of build time is added on top of that.

This is our lot.


Below is a sketch I had drawn up which we will still have to discuss with the contractor. There are certain rules and regulations which we have to stick to, according to local building code and/or condominium building rules, some of which I listed below:

- max height for a 2 story house is 7.80m (including tiled roof)
- the roof may not be flat. The roof MUST BE tiled in ceramic tiles
- the tiled roof must be at a minimum of 30 degrees angle
- the outside walls of the house may not be tiled
- the window frames must be either wood or without frames (pure glass)
- if the house is two stories, 50% of the front (facade) of the house on the second floor must be a balcony/terrace and/or set back by 1.5m

These are the costs we were quoted and estimated for a 150m2 house which is smaller than the house in my sketches below.


FRONT



BACK

These are the costs we were quoted and estimated for a 150m2 house which is smaller than the house in my sketches in my previous post (link is stuck under review so trying to post separately):

Congratulations on the progress!

How many bedrooms and bath is it Fred? Do you have plans for a built-in churrasqueira?
How about your garage construction? I麓m assuming your swimming pool would be at the back...

Congratulations and keep us posted on your progress! Interesting indeed.

The sketch above is three bedrooms. We may end up going for only two (which is what the calculation is roughly based on). Please note: the price indication is not at all based on the sketches - those were drawn up separately. We will be going into the architectural phase of the project now.

We have negotiated the Aprovacao e Licensas (point 1 in the cost sheet) down from BRL 10'000 to BRL 9'000.

Swimming pool would be at the back. The pool is not yet included in the previously posted cost sheet.

There will be a churasqueira, behind the garage most likely. There will also be a small garage, but it is more of a "carport."

I am wondering about having a Brazilian bank account. Nor my partner - she is Brazilian - or I live in Brazil (she has a CPF, I will get one soon). What would be the tax implications in Brazil? We live in Europe as our fixed residency.

Congratulations -- your plans seem to be advancing beautifully.聽 聽How have you managed to include pictures in your posts?

Having or not having a Brazilian bank account is principally a question of what's more convenient for you.聽 聽It shouldn't have a direct effect on your tax status, although obviously, it does make you a little more visible to the Receita Federal.

What will affect your tax liability is the amount of time you spend in Brazil.聽 聽In your case, if your country of citizenship has a tax treaty with Brazil, that will define it.聽 In your partner's case, Brazilian citizens with permanent residence abroad have a tax privileged status, which they can lose if the RF determines that they've returned permanently.聽 聽A competent accountant should be able to provide authoritative guidance.

abthree wrote:

Congratulations -- your plans seem to be advancing beautifully.聽 聽How have you managed to include pictures in your posts?

Having or not having a Brazilian bank account is principally a question of what's more convenient for you.聽 聽It shouldn't have a direct effect on your tax status, although obviously, it does make you a little more visible to the Receita Federal.

What will affect your tax liability is the amount of time you spend in Brazil.聽 聽In your case, if your country of citizenship has a tax treaty with Brazil, that will define it.聽 In your partner's case, Brazilian citizens with permanent residence abroad have a tax privileged status, which they can lose if the RF determines that they've returned permanently.聽 聽A competent accountant should be able to provide authoritative guidance.

Thanks for your reply. To include pictures, there is a button at the top of the text box (which looks like a mountain and the sun). You need to upload your picture to an online server or webspace and copy its URL into the pop-up box which appears after clicking the button (see blue circle).



Thanks for your explanation about the bank account and tax implications. I will make sure to have a talk to an accountant / tax attorney.

Sure thing.聽 I have a Brazilian bank account (Banco do Brasil) for all the usual reasons:聽 transferring funds monthly from the US, making local purchases and paying local bills, not having to keep a lot of cash on me or around the house, etc.聽 Some people seem to be satisfied living on ATM withdrawals using home country debit cards, prepaid debit cards, etc.; I don't doubt their success, but it just seems too complicated for me.

Every expat seems to report different advice from their tax advisor, which is why I always recommend that each person get her/his own.聽 It also provides a paper trail, if question do arise someday from the Receita Federal.

Thanks -- that's what I thought about pictures.聽 I don't have anywhere to upload pictures to provide a URL.聽

I'll be very interested in following your progress. My wife and I are planning to build our own place soon in the South of Brazil. Seeing your current quotes makes me less optimistic however as I've been seeing quotes of R$125k for a 100m2 house plan here which I strongly think is not true or a scam haha.

Good luck with the build!

abthree wrote:

Sure thing.聽 I have a Brazilian bank account (Banco do Brasil) for all the usual reasons:聽 transferring funds monthly from the US, making local purchases and paying local bills, not having to keep a lot of cash on me or around the house, etc.聽 Some people seem to be satisfied living on ATM withdrawals using home country debit cards, prepaid debit cards, etc.; I don't doubt their success, but it just seems too complicated for me.

Every expat seems to report different advice from their tax advisor, which is why I always recommend that each person get her/his own.聽 It also provides a paper trail, if question do arise someday from the Receita Federal.

Thanks -- that's what I thought about pictures.聽 I don't have anywhere to upload pictures to provide a URL.聽

Thanks for that. Will look into it with my Brazilian partner. I have yet to obtain my CPF, which is something required to open a brank account in Brazil (I am assuming).

My partner recalls having to pay high fees for bank accounts, but this was 10 years ago (when she finally closed her account after having moved out of Brazil). Any bank recommendations? I shall also do my own research a bit.

Btw, there should be plenty of "free image upload sites" - just Google it Makes posting images here a lot simpler!

English Penguin wrote:

I'll be very interested in following your progress. My wife and I are planning to build our own place soon in the South of Brazil. Seeing your current quotes makes me less optimistic however as I've been seeing quotes of R$125k for a 100m2 house plan here which I strongly think is not true or a scam haha.

Good luck with the build!

I would be more than happy to look at that quote, although I am no expert. I am certain there are members on this forum that could give you more insight!

However, R$125k seems low for a 100m2 house. For us, the costs amount to around R$900 to R$1000 for just the labor, and another R$1000 for the finishing (bricks, tiles, wood, floors etc.). It goes without saying that this second price - for the finishing - greatly depends on your choice of finishing (low end, medium, high end, luxury, etc.). I have a strong feeling we will end up paying substantially more for the finishing than initially quoted, at least that is the mindset with which I am entering this build.