½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

Good topic.

Personally, I am planning to take up LTR in Thailand for future, rather than stay NHR in Portugal. I am a UK citizen.

Some reasons are:

Income Tax take at end of NHR is eye-watering.

No 184 minimum day stay with LTR (1 day to qualify!)

No requirement to do annual tax return with LTR.

LTR is renewable after a 10 year period.

Cost of living less expensive in Asia.

Rental costs for 1 bed modern condo in large beach town approx €150 month all inclusive!

4 bed, 4 bathroom pool villas available - no or little community charges - for around €200k.

The country is as safe as Portugal in my opinion, the bureaucracy just as bad.

As the Noman Capitalist says - Go where they treat you best.

I am not planning to abandon Portugal but maybe return for 2-3 months every year with Schengen Visa.  A five year absence would allow the ability to re-apply for NHR in future in any case.

Perhaps, by then, sanity may have returned to the Portuguese housing market!! 😳

@nz7521137 I’ve been living in Portugal since September 2021 and here are my thoughts. I’m from Northern California. Portugal is great for those who are moving here with a fair amount of money but for the average workforce it will be very challenging. The ratio of pay to cost of living is unbalanced.

Hospitality workers earn an average of €30 a day and are required to work 6 days a week for most. Tips are not taxed so that’s one way to make more money but regular taxation here is out of control.

I live in the Algarve where rent is very high due to tourism and it is extremely hard to find an apartment for rent that is year round. Most places raise the rent from April to October to 3 or 4 times the normal amount so most people have to move out, find another place every year.

Used cars are ridiculously expensive and takes a crazy amount of time to find because usually the person selling it never answers their phone.

When you are used to being able to get things done in a timely manner, living here will drive you to the brink! You wait for a long time to get an appointment, let’s say with social security office, then when you get there there will be nobody to translate. Yes I know the language barrier is my problem but my previous times there, there was an English speaker so I assumed.

A lot of businesses close every day for 2 hours for lunch! So when you plan your day you have to find out ahead of time whether that business closes for two hours or not. Not a huge deal but just an odd way of doing business.

That’s about all I have to say about my personal experiences here but keep in mind those are MY personal experiences and others could have ac totally different experience.

@4yoursweetooth

They say that good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement.

Portugal is a great place to live if you have passive incomes and don't need to work here.  Choices are limited and things move slowly.

Now, you have a new experience.  Let that development good judgement.

I have lived in several countries, IF you want things like they were back home, stay there.  Be open minded and flexible.

I am now living in Portugal for almost 8 years and I bought my own - super nice and now twice the price - apartment for very little money 5 years ago. I do have passive income and I even found buying a used car from a car dealer very easy (but the cars are more expensive than in e.g. Germany). Once we were used to the slower pace, things got easier for us and we ultimately never had a problem getting what we want and need.

I can understand @slugsurmamates though. Especially for people with high income, high taxes are a nightmare. But taxes are not everything and quality of life also means (for me) comfortable climate, clean air, a language that I can at least read and understand a bit, relatively short flights to meet family/friends, plus, plus

Portugal is not ideal, far from it, but what is? I would be really great to hear from people that left, because of x, y, z.

@slugsurmamates You don't mind the heat in Thailand ? It's almost like 40 degrees all year long, then of course the language also difficult and finally the culture is even more different from the European one. Then like most Asian countries, it's over crowded and depending where in Thailand, very polluted. Sea water, super hot.

Anyway, to each its own...

@juliajonesjy Thailand population density is a little bit higher than France and naturally there are areas that are denser populated than others.I agree about the pollution and the heat, but as you say: To each his own.

However, for many France is the ideal place. It has a beautiful climate as well and there is so much finesse.

I am a Portuguese Canadian. I've lived in Canada since 1972. Came to Canada as a child so visiting Portugal was my only interest. Never thought to move there.

As an adult with 3 sons, I packed up everything and moved to Portugal back in 2003. Difficult adjustment for me in certain aspects but I went with an open mind. I was told I would not get a job there because I had no Portuguese schooling, no Portuguese work experience and was "too old" in my 30s. I was and am totally bilingual.

I was able to get some pretty good jobs but had to work really hard to fight their mentality of "too old". Monthly pay cheques was the worst and yes salaries and cost of living, very unfairly and poorly balanced.... You do get paid for 13 months and you have one full month of paid vacation without having to wait 5 years like in Canada.

It was very frustrating trying to get anything government related done there or even banking. Not what I was used to and at times patience was so non-existing due to their work ethics and lack of professionalism. 

Everything took double the time to do and I kept thinking that I wished I was in Canada, but then there was the other side of Portugal and the Portuguese people that made it become easier.

The weather is great except for winter with no heating in homes or too expensive to use.  Most of the people are pleasant and helpful. There is always something going on. Festivities, outdoor and indoor markets, so much to see and discover, great inexpensive food, historical places, castles, tours, group activities etc.  I was lucky enough to work with people who made you forget difficult situations. Being divorced with 3 young sons, I didn't get to experience a lot but I felt energy, healthy, alive. It made all the negative details be softer. Things have changed there for the better through the years. Everything is much easier now and things run more efficiently. Not perfect, better.

I returned to Canada for personal reasons but have returned for visits but I am trying to relocate there again this year somehow due to my parents health who live there.  I am totally aware it will be much more difficult for me  at this point and age but despite all the difficulties, long waits for appointments, high taxes, AND at 57, I will still need to get a job etc etc., it's all about where you feel happy and alive. Its all about what you want out of life and how much you are willing to do to get it. I guess you need to weigh the pros and cons and see what works for you because everyone has their own thoughts, opinions, needs, comfort levels and levels of patience and only you know whats right for you.

Unfortunately yes, rental places have gone extinct and or to exaggerated monthly amounts , house prices have gone stupid high because many people have been moving there and are unaware of how much higher they are paying than they should which makes it now difficult  for everyone. Including me... wish you all the best

I was able to get some pretty good jobs but had to work really hard to fight their mentality of "too old". Monthly pay cheques was the
I returned to Canada for personal reasons but have returned for visits but I am trying to relocate there again this year somehow due to my parents health who live there. I am totally aware it will be much more difficult for me at this point and age but despite all the difficulties, long waits for appointments, high taxes, AND at 57, I will still need to get a job etc etc., it's all about where you feel happy and alive.
-@paulasousa20

I can easily undestand your situation. Parents are getting older and one doesn't want to live too far away from them. It is sad to read that Canada is still not the place of choice for you. You have lived there for such a long time and should be happy there. Every year thousands of new immigrants are moving to Canada full of hopes for a wonderful future. Will your children move with you to Portugal?

@nz7521137 Good: Honestly, France is not on the list for me. Too much violence, too many strikes all the time,  high taxes to maintain the 'assisted who don't want to work' but on vacation yes. True that there is not a perfect country on earth so it's also a matter of preferences. If I had to be in Thailand, I would pick the north, such as Chang Rai or Chang Mai, outside Bangkok and Pattaya.

If I had to be in Thailand, I would pick the north, such as Chang Rai or Chang Mai, outside Bangkok and Pattaya.
-@juliajonesjy

It's a long time since I was in Bangkok and Chang Mai, but I hear that the pollution  is very bad. When it comes to France, I think that there are nice areas like Haute Savoie, but I don't know much of the country. Only the level of industrial action is shocking. However, there is a lot to see and do in France. I learnt in my life that almost every place has its pros and cons, which might change over a life.

@nz7521137 hello and thank you for your comment.

Actually, I didn't mean to come across as having preference to any place over Canada. It is not at all that Canada is not my place of choice. I love both Canada and Portugal. Sometimes we have to make choices not for comfort but for necessity. 

Canada is my home and always will be. Portugal is where  was born and left at age of 7, also my home.  I consider myself very fortunate to have citizenship in both amazing Countries but I obviously feel more secure in Canada.  Starting in Portugal with no money, no job and no home to go to will definitely be a challenge but for a lot of people, I do believe Portugal is worth the challenge.

I believe that if you have to make a choice, have an open mind and accept the differences.  Look for the beauty and positives because there are plenty everywhere.

My sons are now in their 30s and have their own plans. Unfortunately they will not go with me.

@juliajonesjy

There we go ..... your post is the one I could have written ! I am French and left France in 2020. I have been happy here ever since . Portugal is perfect fort me. Of course there are some bad everyday things (administration) but NO crime, NO pollution, NO strikes. what else is necessary ?

Charles

@juliajonesjy
There we go ..... your post is the one I could have written ! I am French and left France in 2020. I have been happy here ever since . Portugal is perfect fort me. Of course there are some bad everyday things (administration) but NO crime, NO pollution, NO strikes. what else is necessary ?
Charles
-@Solidaritude

Sorry but I cannot agree with you Charles

No crime : yes there are, unfortunately of course, but there are some.

Main difference with France indeed is that any crime or misconduct is punished by high values fines which let people think twice before acting.

No pollution : yes there are, quit a lot, just go out and look at all those plastic bag, bottles and other containers throw away by workers, walkers and others, and look also in the fields the quantity of tractors spraying chemical product on the fields, it's not because the container is green that it means the product is fine for us.

No strikes : yes there have been recently, maybe you didn't notice it, train drivers, teachers

Here also one big difference : police let them do what is allowed by the Portuguese constitution, protester are respectful for goods of other, police is not slashing every protester and news channels aren't trying to catch the worst image of the worst behavior, they are just reporting facts : this make a big difference also.

Also, revolution in France, means tens of thousands guillotined in front of eager crowds;  in Portugal, the crowds settle for carnations.

@juliajonesjy

Indeed, each to their own, and there are many differing places in Thailand - and some are too cold for me for a good part of the year.  Eg. Chaing Mai.

I've never had an issue with heat although I do have an issue with cold in Algarve for 3 months a year in uninsulated properties.

In any case, the saving on rent , property, travel and utilities will cover the cost of a new car and Aircon running in every room 24/7.

This isn't really a Thailand/Asia v Portugal appraisal, just my thoughts on why I am considering Portugal behind as my main residence.

@donn25 Wow ! 1789 to 1975 what a great jump !

No crime : yes there are, unfortunately of course, but there are some.
Main difference with France indeed is that any crime or misconduct is punished by high values fines which let people think twice before acting.

No pollution : yes there are, quit a lot, just go out and look at all those plastic bag, bottles and other containers throw away by workers, walkers and others, and look also in the fields the quantity of tractors spraying chemical product on the fields, it's not because the container is green that it means the product is fine for us.

No strikes : yes there have been recently, maybe you didn't notice it, train drivers, teachers
Here also one big difference : police let them do what is allowed by the Portuguese constitution, protester are respectful for goods of other, police is not slashing every protester and news channels aren't trying to catch the worst image of the worst behavior, they are just reporting facts : this make a big difference also.
-@boutdechou39

I would agree, but I have so far never heard that an expat/immigrant left Portugal because of crime, pollution or strikes.

I have heard that people leave, because they cannot find he work/source of income they expected. Or because they cannot find affordable accommodation. Or because they cannot get affordable health insurance and are getting ill. Or because they feel too far away from their family (and maybe old friends). Or because they cannot pick up Portuguese sufficiently to make use of the cultural and education programs that Portugal offers. Or because they cannot even heat their home sufficiently to feel comfortable in winter. Or even because they have problems moving around on horrible pedestrian surfaces and in public transport that doesn't care about those with mobility problems. Naturally, a combination of all of these is possible.

Morning all

This topic is reading a little intense. As a new home owner in Portugal about to move  in July to the Caldas area, I am excited but not naive about the challenge. We are both retired but I have been learning Portuguese for the past two years to help us bed in. The world is a big place but your place in it is small so adapting is key. I appreciate that we all have different needs and expectations, but at 65 my husband and I have summoned the courage to take this challenge positively. This a new beginning of our making which we intend to make work.

Roz

You will see, @roz66, there are plenty of nice place to be in and around Caldas, warmly welcomed here.

If not already done by staying here in Portugal some month before moving, just be prepared to accept what cannot be easily changed, but this is one of the basics when deciding moving to another country than the one you are used to live in.

As said above, everywhere there are pros and cons, when choosing a new place to live. You must enjoy the pros but also accept the cons, not everyone is ready for that and, of course, those not accepting the negative points are either leaving or complaining, that's the life

@roz66 Welcome to the Silver Coast. This threat was actually not so much intended for those that are arriving, but more for those that are planning to leave or already left. Maybe that is the reason it appears "intense". There must be a threat on expat.com that looks into why people decided to move to Portugal. We had a very good and valid ones.

Thanks all!

Still excited as we get our keys next week.

My feelings about the thread was that it was like looking forward to Christmas but someone tells you Santa doesn’t exist!

Big girl now though….

Roz

Some still believe in Santa, and hope the best for presents

Some don't believe in Santa but still enjoy the life and its presents

and some, whether or not they believe in Santa, are just permanently unsatisfied, it's too bad for them but this is how the life is going,

Hope you will just appreciate the way of life Portugal and portugueses may offer to you, roz.

Hope you will just appreciate the way of life Portugal and Portuguese may offer to you, roz.
-@boutdechou39

I am sure that this is the case if roz comes for reasons that make sense in the longer run.

Maybe one day somebody will add to this thread that has left Portugal and is willing to share the reasons behind it. Unfortunately so many Portuguese have to leave for purely professional/financial reasons. Some of those ultimately come back to assist aging family members or own retirement.

@nz7521137

omg we cannot wait to get out of France - after five years, my best memory will be of the health.Care  system! Happy to move to Portugal!

@bettinakozlowski OK but you are not answering the question which is not asking, why are you leaving France ? Or, Why are you coming to Portugal ?

I imagine there may be someone reading these comments, who hasn't yet committed to moving - in, or out for that matter.  But particularly for those thinking about moving here, there are so many sites that paint a rosy picture, it's probably fair to have a little frank discussion now and then.

@roz66 What a great attitude, good for you for your positivity! no doubt you will have great experiences.

I have some friends in Caldas da Rainha. Once I figure out my direction and if I return to Portugal this year,  when I visit my friends it would be nice if we can possibly meet one day and you are more than welcome to meet up with me in Coimbra area. You can practice your Portuguese on me anytime.

All the best to you both!

How nice! What a lovely welcome and I would be delighted to do that. I don’t know how to exchange my email with you on this forum but would be very happy to do so if you knew how

Roz

@slugsurmamates I'm paying $450 plus electric for a small one bedroom apartment in Chiang Mai. I rented a very studio five minute walk to the beach near Puket. I was paying about $600 for the studio. Where are you finding those prices for rentals?

How nice! What a lovely welcome and I would be delighted to do that. I don’t know how to exchange my email with you on this forum but would be very happy to do so if you knew how
Roz
-@roz66

You just have to click on the avatar of the author and, from the profil of the selected person, select "send a message".

This will let you send a private message only the selected person can read

@marclarsson50

I presently pay £125 for a one bed modern condo in university beach town called Bangsaen. 400yds from beach and central in town.  I have other options all in same range.

I think someone may be charging you Ferang prices! 😂

@boutdechou39

thanks! I am not very tech savvy

Appreciate your help

Roz

I imagine there may be someone reading these comments, who hasn't yet committed to moving - in, or out for that matter. But particularly for those thinking about moving here, there are so many sites that paint a rosy picture, it's probably fair to have a little frank discussion now and then.
-@donn25

However, it is funny how there are immediately some people who want to turn around the topic.

I think the reasons for leaving are as valid as the reasons for staying. Everyone has their own motivations and interests... And this, we are the only ones who can find out, without waiting for others to guide us on what we have to do...

There is a song by a Portuguese singer Antonio Variações, already passed away, which in the lyrics says that if one is not well with oneself, one is only well where one is not and only wants to go where one is not going. A permanent search for something on the outside that is not found inside ourselves.....

"Estou além", António Variações

Esta insatisfação

Não consigo compreender

Sempre esta sensação

Que estou a perder

Tenho pressa de sair

Quero sentir ao chegar

Vontade de partir

P'ra outro lugar

Vou continuar a procurar

O meu mundo

O meu lugar

Porque até aqui eu só

Estou bem aonde eu não estou

Porque eu só quero ir

Aonde eu não vou

Porque eu só estou bem

Aonde eu não estou

Porque eu só quero ir

Aonde eu não vou

...

@boutdechou39 Thanks for your help. I did not know this either

@juliajonesjy because the post asked why people are leaving Portugal and I am

just now moving to Portugal.

Correct so it doesn't answer the question.....Should be why are you moving to Portugal ?

Correct so it doesn't answer the question.....Should be why are you moving to Portugal ?
-@juliajonesjy

Maybe a great idea for a new topic?

@Julia,

This public thread is not for private conversations. You can use private message if you wish. People are free to answer... ok?

And by the way, why did you come to Portugal and leave France....?